Cryptocurrencies - Bitcoin / Ethereum / Others

[edyzmedieval]

Something that is extremely popular nowadays, so I thought I'd get the ball rolling on this subject on the Org. :yes:

Who's invested in cryptocurrencies as of this moment? And what do you own?

Setting aside the sensationalist headlines, Bitcoin and the rest offer quite a special view into the future - blockchain to be exact.

[Husar]

Oh my goodness, I hope not.

If blockchain in this form is the future, then there is no future.

http://e-catworld.com/2017/12/08/the-energy-requirements-of-bitcoin-and-cryptocurrencies/


Today, each bitcoin transaction requires the same amount of energy used to power nine homes in the U.S. for one day. And miners are constantly installing more and faster computers. Already, the aggregate computing power of the bitcoin network is nearly 100,000 times larger than the world’s 500 fastest supercomputers combined.

The total energy use of this web of hardware is huge — an estimated 31 terawatt-hours per year. More than 150 individual countries in the world consume less energy annually. And that power-hungry network is currently increasing its energy use every day by about 450 gigawatt-hours, roughly the same amount of electricity the entire country of Haiti uses in a year.

That sort of electricity use is pulling energy from grids all over the world, where it could be charging electric vehicles and powering homes, to bitcoin-mining farms.

I think it is a monumental waste of energy and, of course, mostly driven by pure greed.
And if anyone thinks taking the power over money out of the hands of governments, one of the neoliberal fantasies behind the cryptocurrencies, I have news for them, too:

https://howmuch.net/articles/bitcoin-wealth-distribution


As you can see, over 95% of all bitcoins in circulation are owned by about 4% of the market. In fact, 1% of the addresses control half the entire market.

Now that may seem a bit backroomy but when I'm going to say that I'm never going to participate in this unless forced to, you'll probably want to know why. :sweatdrop:
I don't trust it, I'm not (that) greedy and I'd rather save the enormous energy use for something more useful like electric cars or turning off a few coal power plants.

[Beskar]

Pyramid Scheme.

[Husar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeMv9uKpAZg

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Everything old is new again (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania).

Remember, those who do not condemn the past are doomed to study history. Or something like that.

[edyzmedieval]

It's clearly not like that.

Sure, it's a massive bubble. But blockchain actually serves a very useful purpose if you look past the currency usage - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchain

[Csargo]

I'd agree with Husar and Seamus as far as Bitcoin/etc. are concerned. The energy cost to mine Bitcoin is ludicrous and unsustainable in my opinion. Their value will fluctuate wildly, and I'm not entirely sure how that will translate into using them for consumer purposes. Accepting it as payment for anything will always be a gamble if I understand it correctly. So I'd agree with Seamus that it's just a bubble that's going to burst eventually, so I'd be wary of investing in it heavily at this point. I have no idea what Ethereum is, so I don't really have a comment on it.

As far as blockchain in other ventures that seems far more promising to me.

[Husar]

I'm unsure about it being a bubble or even a pyramid scheme (unsure as in could go either way). Not that that makes it much better in my eyes. :sweatdrop:

As for the other uses of blockchains, the waste of energy still applies in these cases so far. Centralized processing that doesn't rely on enormous amounts of computerized guesswork is usually more efficient. Ethereum appears to be both a currency and a way to do other things such as contract work.

The question then is how much of the other uses will remain if the currency does indeed become unattractive? People build enormous mining farms for the money, if they become only contract brokers or similar, how will the prices be? And especially compared to other corporations offering the same services now? How trustworthy and secure will it actually be? Just take the examples from wiki:


A hard fork term refers to a situation when a blockchain splits into two separate chains in consequence of the use of two distinct sets of rules trying to govern the system.[43] For example, Ethereum has hard-forked to "make whole" the investors in The DAO, which had been hacked by exploiting a vulnerability in its code.[44][45] In 2014 the Nxt community was asked to consider a hard fork that would have led to a rollback of the blockchain records to mitigate the effects of a theft of 50 million NXT from a major cryptocurrency exchange. The hard fork proposal was rejected, and some of the funds were recovered after negotiations and ransom payment.[46]

[Fragony]

Not falling for it myself, it's baseless. People who are into it can really lose a lot and they probably will. I'm not playing.

[HopAlongBunny]

With the black market comprising a significant share of world GDP, bitcoin (or something like it) will probably stick around.
"Nothing you do on-line is truly anonymous"; maybe, but until we see people actually being exposed/prosecuted for shady dealing using a crypto currency the value will hold.
As transactions using the currency go mainstream you might see a ramp up in oversight and some real testing of the ability to track transactions and identities.
Until it is "cracked" it will remain useful, like a digital "tax haven".

[edyzmedieval]

Very good point about the electricity usage - bitcoin mining, because of increasing difficulty to solve those blocks (mining -> computational ways of solving blocks that give you the fraction of a bitcoin) , uses more and more processor power and hence more energy. This is a very big negative about Bitcoin and blockchain in general because of the horrible consequences it has on the environment.

That being said, my focus is specifically on blockchain as a technology. There's opportunities here, huge ones, for technological advancement.

[The Stranger]

any minds changed?

[Fragony]

Hi TS

It kinda goes as I expected it would. The bitcoin has nothing to fall back upon, it's baseless valuta. Now that the thrust is diminishing it's caught in a maelström it can't swim out, maybe a bit sometimes but the only way is down

A song for the bitcoin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNfWo4xU20

[The Stranger]

hi frag.

we'll see how it goes :P i must say i'm a bit surprised you aren't into it.

[Fragony]

hi frag.

we'll see how it goes :P i must say i'm a bit surprised you aren't into it.

Thought about it and decided it wasn't worth the risk, as I said it has nothing to fall back upon, real valuta has a gold-stash. I get 6.8% out of my investments, sometimes a little bit more, sometimes a little bit less, but it's steady, it can't make a nosedive. Bitcoin absolutily can, and that is already happening, it's foundation (ttnrust) is crumbling and thrust is all there is to it, downward spiral. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone it's as safe as a letter from a Nigerian millionaire

[Furunculus]

don't get too in a tizz about electricity consumption, Proof of Stake is coming. Proof of Work was a thing of its time, it will pass.

and yes, most of the increase in total crypto value results from uninformed hopeful speculation, but that does not equal an absence of utility.

my very small investment quintupled in value over the course of four months, but it now sits about just four times what i put in.

[Fragony]

Sell it while you can, friendly advice. I don't know what you call very small but it can just vaporise, if you don't have at least 1000k somewhere else you can be in for a nasty surprise. Maybe you already have one as I type this, be sensible. The guy who set it up sold his bitcpins as well, how is that going to look

[edyzmedieval]

Most people who stay in the crypto business are interested in the underlying blockchain technology rather than speculation of currency.

Proof of Stake, Proof of Work, ethereum contracts... that kind of stuff.

[Furunculus]

Sell it while you can, friendly advice. I don't know what you call very small but it can just vaporise, if you don't have at least 1000k somewhere else you can be in for a nasty surprise. Maybe you already have one as I type this, be sensible. The guy who set it up sold his bitcpins as well, how is that going to look

Ezy is right, I like technology and I am interested in the utility of block chain.

It is very small, if it vaporises ill laugh (ruefully). I have a day job, with a pension, this is just a hobby, and I'm an investor rather than a trader.

Hodl for the lambo!

[edyzmedieval]

https://blockgeeks.com/guides/proof-of-work-vs-proof-of-stake/

:book:

[edyzmedieval]

Well... the prices went down quite a bit...

Bitcoin is well under 10.000 now.

[Husar]

Here's an article that you might be interested in:

https://medium.com/@jimmysong/why-blockchain-is-hard-60416ea4c5c

[edyzmedieval]

Well... I guess we're now out of the whole crypto bubble and into new uncharted territory. I am currently holding my small gains and looking to purchase more in fact, as prices right now are quite good.

Anyone similar?

[Togakure]

This article popped up on my grid this morning and I'd browsed this thread yesterday. I thought maybe some might find it a good read if they hadn't already seen it or a related article.


MIT Technology Review: "Once hailed as unhackable, blockchains are now getting hacked"
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612974/once-hailed-as-unhackable-blockchains-are-now-getting-hacked/

[Shaka_Khan]

MIT Technology Review: "Once hailed as unhackable, blockchains are now getting hacked"
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612974/once-hailed-as-unhackable-blockchains-are-now-getting-hacked/
That was the main reason why I didn't get into bitcoin. There were earlier incidents of bitcoin hackings. And before bitcoin, I read articles of even the banks getting hacked. Many people's personal information got hacked. Hackers will find a way. Electricity consumption for bitcoin was another reason for me to avoid it.

I can see the potential in blockchain for the far future, and I'm aware of the benefits, but I think it currently has too much against it and is a huge risk.

[edyzmedieval]

It's become more and more widespread though, despite the massive electricity consumption. Banks are now creating their own cryptocurrencies and blockchain platforms.

[edyzmedieval]

Well... can we call cryptocurrencies mainstream now? Since Bitcoin has rocketed in terms of value and there's dozens of projects popping up every day about this.

By the way, here's also a separate primer on other types of cryptos. - https://www.investopedia.com/tech/most-important-cryptocurrencies-other-than-bitcoin/

[JamesMiller31]

I seriously believe it is different than 2018 now. The world is changing. Yes the bitcoin is still versatile and possible to go down but Im convinced now that it is very bullish for now and coming future. Its price is not going to crash like 2018. It will continuously go up whether rapidly or gradually. Thats how I see it

[edyzmedieval]

So in the past coming weeks we've had the Dogecoin, which started off as a joke, shoot to the moon (yeah, I know) in terms of pricing. While there's no real use for Dogecoin - apart from maybe Tesla memes - it's way over market cap compared to some huge companies such as Ford.

Do you guys own Dogecoin?

Also - one to watch out for. Cardano.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardano_(blockchain_platform)

[edyzmedieval]

https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/11/21/bitcoin-city-el-salvador-plans-world-s-first-city-built-with-crypto-bonds-and-powered-by-v

In the meantime in El Salvador...


Half of the VAT levied would be used to fund the bonds issued to build the city, and the other half would pay for services such as garbage collection...