Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

[spmetla]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/macedonia-greece-vow-solve-decades-old-name-dispute-n836396


LONDON — What's in a name? For the uneasy European neighbors of Macedonia and Greece, quite a lot actually.

In one of the strangest international disputes still playing out on the world stage, these two countries have been quarreling for more than a quarter of a century about what Macedonia should be called.

It's not just symbolic: The dispute has seen Greece block Macedonia's potential accession to NATO and the European Union, as well as imposing a brief but crippling trade embargo in the mid-1990s........

Some good news for a change. Would be nice for Macedonia to join NATO, they've certainly supported the Afghan mission among UN ones as well. Would also be good for friendly relations between Macedonia and Greece not to forgot Albania too.

[CrossLOPER]

Fighting over skeleton words.

I remember there was a member here who would lose his s*** over this topic. He also though that bisexuality was OK, so long as you got married to a woman and had kids, so he had his own banana world logic.

[Fragony]

I didn't even know Macedonia is a country, I thought it was a part of Greece.

[Crandar]

Macedonia has sent troops to support the U.S.-led wars in Iran and Afghanistan
Qualitative journalism from NBC. Is it too much to ask from supposedly professionals to double-check their article before they publish it?

Anyway, on topic, I hope that a deal will be achieved, but I'm not very optimist. In Greece and I imagine it's the same in Macedonia, the vast majority is against the inclusion of Macedonia in the country's official name. That makes a compromise politically suicidal.

Also, contrary to what the article says, SYRIZA is now a center, center-left party with many nationalist voters. They also govern the country in an alliance with a far-right group called Independent Greeks, whose program has endorsed the chem-trail conspiracy theory, so they are not invulnerable in nationalist matters.

http://www.eliamep.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/FYROM-survey-Full-report-FINAL-Sept-2016.pdf

[Fragony]

Can you explain it for me please? I don't really trust anything from google wtf is going on?

[Gilrandir]

Some good news for a change. Would be nice for Macedonia...

Do you want Sarmatian to have a heart attack? He would be hemmed in by NATO altogether!



In Greece and I imagine it's the same in Macedonia, the vast majority is against the inclusion of Macedonia in the country's official name. That makes a compromise politically suicidal.


The bold needs substantiation. AFAIK, Macedonia had offered several options all of which included "Macedonia":http://greece.greekreporter.com/2017/12/14/report-new-macedonia-the-name-proposed-by-fyrom-athens-to-agree/

[Crandar]

Can you explain it for me please? I don't really trust anything from google wtf is going on?
They said Iran instead of Iraq. Elementary mistake.
[QUOTE=Gilrandir;2053771600The bold needs substantiation. AFAIK, Macedonia had offered several options all of which included "Macedonia":[/QUOTE]
I meant that the public opinion of Greeks and Macedonians are irreconcilable. Of course the majority of Macedonians want term Macedonia included and about half of them (or the majority, if we exclude Albanians) are against a compromise.
https://euobserver.com/news/30146

[ConjurerDragon]

They said Iran instead of Iraq. Elementary mistake.

I meant that the public opinion of Greeks and Macedonians are irreconcilable. Of course the majority of Macedonians want term Macedonia included and about half of them (or the majority, if we exclude Albanians) are against a compromise.
https://euobserver.com/news/30146

They should just join Bulgaria and be done with it, just like Serbia and Bulgaria agreed to before the first Balkan War
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Occupied_territories_in_the_Balkans%2C_end_of_April_1913.png
That was at a time when the people in the area still considered themselves bulgarians living under the oppressive reign of the Ottomans. Only during the Jugoslavian indoctrination which did not allow that bulgarians lived inside the borders of Jugoslavia to prevent even the slightest reason for bulgarian interference, did that change.

[Crandar]

It's not that simple. It's true that Macedonians were culturally between Serbs and Bulgarians, but Bulgarian nationalism lost the game definitely after the brutal occupation of WWII. Despite allegedly liberating their brothers from Yugoslavian oppression, the Bulgarians treated them as second-class citizens. That gradually led to various nationalist groups, VMRO included, changing their ideology from Bulgarian irredentism to Macedonian nationalism.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Qualitative journalism from NBC. Is it too much to ask from supposedly professionals to double-check their article before they publish it?

You are speaking of U.S. journalists, so yes.

[a completely inoffensive name]

EDIT: N/A

[Sarmatian]

Macedonia is Serbia anyway, so the entire thing is moot.

It's gonna be one of the first countries to be taken during inevitable Serbian world conquest!

[CrossLOPER]

Macedonia is Serbia anyway, so the entire thing is moot.

It's gonna be one of the first countries to be taken during inevitable Serbian world conquest!
I know you're kidding, but whenever I hear nationalists bleating about how awesome their plot of land within imaginary lines is compared to some other plot of land behind some imaginary lines, I want to force them to live under the same conditions that they considered "the golden age" for a year.

[Crandar]

Macedonia is Serbia anyway, so the entire thing is moot.

It's gonna be one of the first countries to be taken during inevitable Serbian world conquest!
YOUTUBE is full of numerous professional geopolitical predictions about the Balkans. All experts universally agree that the Holy Trinity of Orthodoxy is destined to prevail, at the expense of Muslims, Catholics and other pagans:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-1DYdc7O7I

Of course, you chose to ruin everything by electing that lesbian puppet of Communist Soros. I'm frankly speechless.

[Sarmatian]

Ah, the good ole map painting. Used to be favourite pass time in these parts.

Although any prediction where Serbia doesn't end up controlling Washington, Moscow and Beijing is pointless.

[Husar]

YOUTUBE is full of numerous professional geopolitical predictions about the Balkans. All experts universally agree that the Holy Trinity of Orthodoxy is destined to prevail, at the expense of Muslims, Catholics and other pagans:

Of course, you chose to ruin everything by electing that lesbian puppet of Communist Soros. I'm frankly speechless.

The orthodox rap music gives it away as semi-professional, but true experts only come in the form of sock puppets, so I'll wait for Binkov (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPdk3JuQGxOCMlZLLt4drhw/videos) to cover the Balkan scenario...

[Montmorency]

Speaking of Serbia...

Kosovo Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic assassinated in broad daylight (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42701712)

Speaking of Serbia ruling the world, should we retain "Balkan powder keg" in our vocabulary?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Speaking of Serbia...

Kosovo Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic assassinated in broad daylight (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42701712)

Speaking of Serbia ruling the world, should we retain "Balkan powder keg" in our vocabulary?

I always thought "Einige verdammt dumme Sache auf dem Balkan" was the best quotation on the regions propensity for causing trouble.

[Sarmatian]

I always thought "Einige verdammt dumme Sache auf dem Balkan" was the best quotation on the regions propensity for causing trouble.

I also like that quote, it's just that I don't see the "region's propensity for causing trouble" as the issue, but rather everyone else's involvement in the region.

You have conflicts, wars and assassinations in all parts of the world all the time, that is not unique to Balkans. What is unique is that there is quite a few powerful countries and their overlapping interests. They are constantly try to increase their own influence at the expense of one another.

Case in point, the name dispute. It is pretty clear that US are pressuring Greece and Macedonia now to resolve the dispute so that Macedonia can enter NATO under current government. And I won't be surprised if the name Greece accepts now is the name they rejected in the past.

Concerning the murder, still hard to say what happened. It was most probably committed by Albanians, but not yet unclear whether it was ordered by the clique in charge. A fairly high degree of possibility, though.

[Strike For The South]

Croatia>Serbia>Greece>Macedonia>Kososvo>Bosnia>Hertzogovina>Albania.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I also like that quote, it's just that I don't see the "region's propensity for causing trouble" as the issue, but rather everyone else's involvement in the region....

A fair point that. The propensity for trouble is NOT entirely home-grown.

[spmetla]

You have conflicts, wars and assassinations in all parts of the world all the time, that is not unique to Balkans. What is unique is that there is quite a few powerful countries and their overlapping interests. They are constantly try to increase their own influence at the expense of one another.

Case in point, the name dispute. It is pretty clear that US are pressuring Greece and Macedonia now to resolve the dispute so that Macedonia can enter NATO under current government. And I won't be surprised if the name Greece accepts now is the name they rejected in the past.


Greece will probably accept the name they've rejected, Macedonia will probably not try to change their flag back to the original one they wanted and then it'll likely join NATO.

Makes me wonder though if all the Balkans are part of NATO if that'll lead to the occasional war and war through proxies that have been allowed between NATO allies such as Greece and Turkey both over the Aegean islands and in Cyprus.

As a Serbian, is NATO still hated there? I know that it participated with NATO exercises but understandably keeps it's close ties with Russia. Would Serbia joining NATO be something you could imagine happening?
I imagine with the war in relatively recent memory that it still guides policy there. Has the stream of migrants through Serbia caused any problems?
I know on some more extreme forums I've seen Serbian posters essentially see the migrants as a fitting punishment for the 'West' after allowing the albanian/kosovars to separate from Serbia.

How about EU accession? I know that Serbia is a candidate for membership and that negotiations have been ongoing for years, is this a popular initative given the Brexit, Greek financial crisis, migrant crisis, and chill caused by the proxy war in Ukraine?


A fair point that. The propensity for trouble is NOT entirely home-grown.
Every one of the Balkan wars had Great Power meddling behind them. All the wars up to and including WW1 being over what was acceptable for the balance of power their via the Austro-Hungarian and Russian proxies.
Cold War had a technically neutral Yugoslavia, a PRC Chinese backed Albania, NATO supported Greece and Turkey, pro-soviet Warsaw pact Bulgaria and Romania and questioningly loyal to the Warsaw pact Hungary.

[Fragony]

The first Balkan wars aren't that easily tracked to foreign meddling, WW1 is though. Everybody is still unsure about it though, no easy answers

[spmetla]

It was partly as a reaction to the aspiring Italian Great Power's war with the Ottomans over modern day Libya. Also it was a Serbian reaction to Austria's annexation of Bosnia which together with his overthrow of the pro-Hapsburg King a decade earlier drove him into the Russian camp and expansion to the south.
Could also say it was caused by all the unhappy Balkan (especially Bulgaria) nations following the Russo-Turkish War which was not given the full territory it wanted due to British and Austro-Hungarian opposition to any new large power in the Balkans that could oppose it's policies in Transylvania and future Yugoslavia.
The Congress of Berlin left everyone in the region unhappy and allowed the tensions and latent nationalism to simmer then boil over resulting in the Balkan Wars and WW1.

[Sarmatian]

As a Serbian, is NATO still hated there? I know that it participated with NATO exercises but understandably keeps it's close ties with Russia. Would Serbia joining NATO be something you could imagine happening?

Hatred is maybe too strong a word for most. Resentment, dislike, distrust would probably be better descriptions. Most people, at least in the north do accept that we have to cooperate with NATO in certain areas. I mean, at this point, we have a lot in common with the Gaul village from Asterix - a small country surrounded by NATO bases. We just lack the magic potion.

I don't see Serbia joining NATO, bar some huge geopolitical changes, for at least next 20 years. It the referendum was tomorrow, I could easily a resounding NO victory easily, probably around 75%, maybe more.


I imagine with the war in relatively recent memory that it still guides policy there. Has the stream of migrants through Serbia caused any problems?

Well, my opinion is that stream of migrants didn't cause real problems anywhere, at least any more than could be expected from a tired, hungry and scared group of people.


I know on some more extreme forums I've seen Serbian posters essentially see the migrants as a fitting punishment for the 'West' after allowing the albanian/kosovars to separate from Serbia. Yeah, a lot of Serbs are idiots. In this case, because one had nothing to do with the other.

All wars in the nineties were nationalistic. Had absolutely nothing to do with religion. Religion was just a way to point out "look, they're different than us because they pray to a different God". How would you separate Bosnians otherwise? They talk the same, the look the same, and until the war, they all shared similar level of disdain for organized religion. A lot of those idiots defending their "true faith" on all sides were bestest communists a few years before.


How about EU accession? I know that Serbia is a candidate for membership and that negotiations have been ongoing for years, is this a popular initative given the Brexit, Greek financial crisis, migrant crisis, and chill caused by the proxy war in Ukraine?

Well, this is a tough one. The polls show less than 50% in favor of joining consistently for the last several years (was over 70% in the early 00's). Yet all major political parties push for it and are usually mentioning it as the most important foreign policy goal. So, with basically no organized opposition, a coordinated campaign from all major political parties would easily raise it over 50% in the span of a few months.

[Greyblades]

I wonder what the ancient athenians and spartans would think to hear that 2500 years later the nation claiming thier heritage is getting worked up over who has rights to the name macedon.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I wonder what the ancient athenians and spartans would think to hear that 2500 years later the nation claiming thier heritage is getting worked up over who has rights to the name macedon.

Weren't they a Persian satrapy by that point? Or am I off a few years?

[Montmorency]

Ancient cultures could relate to the preoccupation with name and title, and the prestige and legitimacy these confer.

[Greyblades]

True but I was actually referring to the general disdane the southern citie states held the macedonians in the runup to alexander.

[Fragony]

It was partly as a reaction to the aspiring Italian Great Power's war with the Ottomans over modern day Libya. Also it was a Serbian reaction to Austria's annexation of Bosnia which together with his overthrow of the pro-Hapsburg King a decade earlier drove him into the Russian camp and expansion to the south.
Could also say it was caused by all the unhappy Balkan (especially Bulgaria) nations following the Russo-Turkish War which was not given the full territory it wanted due to British and Austro-Hungarian opposition to any new large power in the Balkans that could oppose it's policies in Transylvania and future Yugoslavia.
The Congress of Berlin left everyone in the region unhappy and allowed the tensions and latent nationalism to simmer then boil over resulting in the Balkan Wars and WW1.

There are so many theories and there is something wrong with all of them. There was so much going on all over the place. The greater sebia with Russian backing seems the plausable to but I can't know. I wouldn't burn my hands on the Balkan wars and WW1 and be factual about it

[spmetla]

Fair enough, I can't pretend to *know* for sure. Can only assume based of what was written then and what happened after, hindsight and all that.

[Fragony]

Nobody knows what happened you are not alone in that

[Crandar]

A great demonstration against any compromise just ended in Thessaloniki, the capital of Greek Macedonia. The participants claim that 500.000 participated, but the police report speaks about 90.000.

The speakers include a known nationalist priest (https://www.facebook.com/papa.kefalogiannis) that literally kisses statues, a mathematician that lies of being a university professor and claims of being the most intelligent Greek alive and a former commander-in-chief.

The country's crème de la crème. A group of protestors burned a 19th century building, because they suspected it of housing anarchists.

http://www.kathimerini.gr/944498/article/epikairothta/ellada/stis-floges-diathrhteo-ktirio-sto-kentro-ths-8essalonikhs-vinteo

https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13511959_10210008443796484_8705170401905094712_n.jpg?oh=ed9eaa0c8ba96cc6bcd0201b78a33214&oe=5ADA09E8

[spmetla]

More protests in Athens over the Macedonia issue:
At least 140,000 Greeks have taken to the streets of Athens in a protest about the decades-long dispute over the name Macedonia.

Many Greeks object to the country of the same name calling itself Macedonia, saying it implies a territorial claim on Greece's northern Macedonia region.

Protesters oppose Greek government proposals on resolving the issue.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42937889

[Seamus Fermanagh]

More protests in Athens over the Macedonia issue:
At least 140,000 Greeks have taken to the streets of Athens in a protest about the decades-long dispute over the name Macedonia.

Many Greeks object to the country of the same name calling itself Macedonia, saying it implies a territorial claim on Greece's northern Macedonia region.

Protesters oppose Greek government proposals on resolving the issue.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42937889

Sadly, the Greek economy is such that more than enough of them have time on their hands to take umbrage over such a thing.

[Crandar]

The speakers claim 1.800.000, but that's probably just their vivid imagination.
In the previous one, the star was a former commander in chief, who became a sensation after a couple of racist and undemocratic slogans (Gypsi-Skopjans, Long live the special forces, the army and the nation and etc.).

Reasonably so, because the rest were outright charlatans. Today, it was Mikis Theodorakis, one of the most famous composers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikis_Theodorakis).

Theodorakis, during the Dekemvriana, fought against the German collaborators (and the British..), was exiled in isolated islands and tortured by the authoritarian regime, only to be imprisoned again 30 years after by the colonel's junta.

Today, some shady courtiers pushed his wheelchair, from where he gave a rambling speech, protesting against the leftist enemies of the country and the most dangerous form of fascism, the left one. Below, the crowd, which included (hopefully a minority) dictatorship nostalgists, people who call the partisans as bandits and even Nazis (https://thecaller.gr/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/mixaloliakos_3_4_2-768x576.jpg).
Sad!

[Beskar]

The Greeks who oppose any form of 'Macedonia' from the name are the petty ones. Suggestions such as 'New Macedonia'/'North Macedonia'/etc are perfectly valid especially since the country is within the region of Macedonia (though the region is a lot bigger) so denying them any form of name is being selfish. It would be like Ireland taking umbrage over the fact Northern Ireland has 'Ireland' in its name, suggesting it should be called 'Belfast' using the term 'Belfastians' when addressing the people living there, using excuses such as the protestant majorities living there instead of catholic majorities.

[Crandar]

B-b-but muh Argead DNA!

Anyway, apparently my fears were confirmed. The son of a former torturer (http://www.alfavita.gr/arthron/koinonia/o-hoyntikos-gios-toy-vasanisti-skaloympaka-dinei-ta-eysima-ston-miki-o-pateras-moy), whose father spent his time sadistically hurting leftists, and who also expressed his hope to reestablish the "torture islands" for the leftists of 21st century congratulated the composer for his message.
Nice, I hope he and his "courtiers" feel proud of themselves.

It seems that the reeducation campaign of Makronisos (http://www.greektravel.com/greekislands/makronisos/) finally succeeded!

[Montmorency]

Crandar, do you come to the Org to feel better about your country, or to make us feel better about ours? All I get is that sinking feeling...

[Suraknar]

I just think,

That FYROM should name itself "Republic of Vardar", this way it can forge a true identity for itself and shed the Bulgarian stigma as well as the usurpation of Greek History. Can define it own Slavic Language too, Vardarian.

Everyone would welcome this and no one would dispute it. And then The Republic of Vardar can open itself to the world conduct business join the EU etc etc ..live happy and prosper.

Cheers!

[Sarmatian]

They can't have a highway called Alexander the Great, an airport named Philip II of Macedon and this flag 20560

[Suraknar]

They can't have a highway called Alexander the Great, an airport named Philip II of Macedon and this flag 20560

I do not mind the flag..it looks like a the Sun..Sunny Vardar, from where the light beacons to the world. Whatever makes one happy there :)

But last I checked, nor Phillip II nor Alexander the Great were Vardarians or spoke a Slavic Language or were even Christian. They spoke Greek, they prayed to the Gods of Olympus, and offered Sacrifice in the same rituals as any other Greek form any other Hellenic region.

Cheers!

[Gilrandir]

It would be like Ireland taking umbrage over the fact Northern Ireland has 'Ireland' in its name, suggesting it should be called 'Belfast' using the term 'Belfastians' when addressing the people living there, using excuses such as the protestant majorities living there instead of catholic majorities.

I suggest Ulster and Ulsterians.


I just think,

That FYROM should name itself "Republic of Vardar", this way it can forge a true identity for itself and shed the Bulgarian stigma as well as the usurpation of Greek History. Can define it own Slavic Language too, Vardarian.

Everyone would welcome this and no one would dispute it. And then The Republic of Vardar can open itself to the world conduct business join the EU etc etc ..live happy and prosper.

Cheers!

I like it. They SHOULD do this and they SHOULD do that and EVERYONE (In Greece? - what about themselves?) would welcome this and NO ONE (in Greece? - what about themselves?) would dispute it.


I do not mind the flag..it looks like a the Sun..Sunny Vardar, from where the light beacons to the world. Whatever makes one happy there :)

But last I checked, nor Phillip II nor Alexander the Great were Vardarians or spoke a Slavic Language or were even Christian. They spoke Greek, they prayed to the Gods of Olympus, and offered Sacrifice in the same rituals as any other Greek form any other Hellenic region.

Cheers!

They live in the land called Macedonia. What is the origin and the language of the people who live there NOW is of no importance.

If we listen to you, we would all advocate forbidding Arabs in Egypt to call themselves Egyptians. How can they do it if their language and script aren't what they were under Ramses, they don't pray to Ra and don't erect pyramids! The same with Lybians, Syrians, Romanians. How can we tolerate Normandy - they don't speak Norse any more, how can Norway be so indifferent to that ignominious name theft. And Sussex - I think authorities in Dresden should watch closely those non-Saxon speakers who purloined the glorious name. How can it be "South" if Saxony is the southernest one bearing the name? Do they pray to Wodan in Sussex anyway? Russia also should revert to Muscovy since the center of ancient Rus was Kyiv - the capital of modern Ukraine. And people of the USA don't speak American. And anyway, did Amerigo Vespucci's family get all the royalty for using his name?

The bottom line: let Greeks decide what names should be given to all countries. After that everybody will live a happy and prosperous life. As they do in Greece.

[Beskar]

I suggest Ulster and Ulsterians.
It was a more of a reference to Skopje and Skopjanians.

[Crandar]

Crandar, do you come to the Org to feel better about your country, or to make us feel better about ours? All I get is that sinking feeling...
The rambling general, the pan-sexual priest or the red angel are just comical, great cases to have some laugh at the medieval segment of our society, but the case of Mikis genuinely saddened me, to be honest. It's not nice to see how men deteriorate with age.

They can't have a highway called Alexander the Great, an airport named Philip II of Macedon and this flag 20560
Yeah it sucks. It looks like a badly designed imitation of the Japanese Imperial version. They used to have a much cooler one (https://fotw.info/images/m/mk_1992.gif), but they changed it following the negotiations in the '90s, because apparently the Vergina Sun was copyrighted by Greece.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I just think,

That FYROM should name itself "Republic of Vardar", this way it can forge a true identity for itself and shed the Bulgarian stigma as well as the usurpation of Greek History. Can define it own Slavic Language too, Vardarian.

Everyone would welcome this and no one would dispute it. And then The Republic of Vardar can open itself to the world conduct business join the EU etc etc ..live happy and prosper.

Cheers!

Sidestepping a squabble over historical minutiae in order to move forward? Is that allowed in the Balkans?

[Fragony]

It all kinda makes sense, Greek-tragedy we call it after all. How did we ever ended up here, total fail

[Husar]

I just think,

That FYROM should name itself "Republic of Vardar", this way it can forge a true identity for itself and shed the Bulgarian stigma as well as the usurpation of Greek History. Can define it own Slavic Language too, Vardarian.

Everyone would welcome this and no one would dispute it. And then The Republic of Vardar can open itself to the world conduct business join the EU etc etc ..live happy and prosper.

Cheers!

Sounds a lot like Mordor though, not sure why they would want to sound like a super villain's lair.


Saxony [..wrong order, but..] glorious name

:laugh4:

That was before the 3rdR, DDR, NPD and AfD...

[Sarmatian]

Sidestepping a squabble over historical minutiae in order to move forward? Is that allowed in the Balkans?

Absolutely not!

If they come to a sensible solution that pleases both parties, there will be a vote and both nations will be expelled!

[Suraknar]

They live in the land called Macedonia. What is the origin and the language of the people who live there NOW is of no importance.

If we listen to you, we would all advocate forbidding Arabs in Egypt to call themselves Egyptians. How can they do it if their language and script aren't what they were under Ramses, they don't pray to Ra and don't erect pyramids! The same with Lybians, Syrians, Romanians. How can we tolerate Normandy - they don't speak Norse any more, how can Norway be so indifferent to that ignominious name theft. And Sussex - I think authorities in Dresden should watch closely those non-Saxon speakers who purloined the glorious name. How can it be "South" if Saxony is the southernest one bearing the name? Do they pray to Wodan in Sussex anyway? Russia also should revert to Muscovy since the center of ancient Rus was Kyiv - the capital of modern Ukraine. And people of the USA don't speak American. And anyway, did Amerigo Vespucci's family get all the royalty for using his name?

The bottom line: let Greeks decide what names should be given to all countries. After that everybody will live a happy and prosperous life. As they do in Greece.

We all have opinions, I stated mine in this regard.

Each region had an evolution and history. All of the places you mentioned there was transition.

Egypt got Hellenized, then Romanized then Conquered by Arabs in the span of hundreds of years.

Same happened with Lybians and Syrians.

Romanians were Dacians who got Romanized for many hundreds of years a new Identity took place.

Present day people of FYROM have nothing to do with Ancient Macedonia. This is the point. It is NOT part of their History. This is the point.

Macedonians were displaced and replaced in time, today they exist still, they live in Greece.

You want to create a new Nation, fine. But don't steal the history of your neighbors.

In all the places you mentioned there are people who still speak dialects and languages have merged between original culture and new arrived culture.

FYROM's people dont have such a Language it is not a mixture of Bulgarian and Greek. It is clearly a Dialect of Bulgarian. And that says volumes as to the true History of the people there.

Which is why I think a more suitable name would be Republic of Vardar and since the Country and its people exists on the region which was called Vardar 100 years ago.

Much easier than claiming that Slavs evolved from Greeks or that somehow Ancient Macedonians spoke a Slavic language, or whatever other is claimed by Historical Revisionist attempts.

Aristotle was Macedonia, he was Greek and he spoke, wrote and taught in Greek too.

I have nothing against Slavic peoples, this is not where I am coming form. But There is issue when you try to misrepresent History and bigger one when you try to usurp someone else's.

You cannot deny this on Historical, and Archeological grounds.

Saying that FYROM's people are the same as Ancient Macedonia is the same as saying that Russians and Ukranians are same too. Maybe you agree with that?

[Suraknar]

Sounds a lot like Mordor though, not sure why they would want to sound like a super villain's lair.



:laugh4:

That was before the 3rdR, DDR, NPD and AfD...

Independently of what Fantasy name it reminds us of. It is actually the name of the region and today also the name of the a River in that region. There is a Football club named Vardar too (Soccer Team for Americans).

It is not an Invented name.

Second of all, it is just a suggestion, the actual name does not matter, the message here is that FYROM can come up with any name that is proper to them without having to usurp one form their neighbors.

I personally think that it sounds Cool.

Cheers!

[Gilrandir]

Romanians were Dacians who got Romanized for many hundreds of years a new Identity took place.

Yet they have nothing to do with Roma nowadays, do they?




Egypt got Hellenized, then Romanized then Conquered by Arabs in the span of hundreds of years.

Same happened with Lybians and Syrians.

Yet they keep the names.


All of the places you mentioned there was transition.

You want to create a new Nation, fine. But don't steal the history of your neighbors.

In all the places you mentioned there are people who still speak dialects and languages have merged between original culture and new arrived culture.


The main blame was of stealing NAMES, not history. But OK, let's consider some more examples of stealing historic names: how can Greece fail to see that there is Alexandria in modern Egypt, where people don't speak Greek, don't pray to Greek gods (by the way people in modern Greece don't either) and are Arabs? Any demonstrations to condemn them? AFAIK, there are two Athens in the USA and Ithaca as well. Any problems with that? I can go on for ever: how can Germany tolerate the name of France? Franks were a Germanic tribe and there is a region in Germany called Frankonia. I suggest renaming France into Former Roman Province of Gaul (FRPOG). I expect Mexico will voice its indigantion at New Mexico and California (since there is a peninsula of the same name in Mexico). And that guy Columbus. I expect Italy (and Israel since he was a jew from Genoa) should forbid any fish caught in the river Columbia, ban all those who graduated from Columbian University and cancel all movie performances featuring films shot by Columbia pictures. The name of the country "Columbia" should be changed into Former Spanish Colony of the North of South America. How can New Zealand be called that way if they don't speak Dutch as they do in Zealand. And probably we will pass in silence the existence of several Guineas - including Bissau, New Guinea, and so on.

The world is full of similar cases, but it seems to bother only Greeks.


Saying that FYROM's people are the same as Ancient Macedonia is the same as saying that Russians and Ukranians are same too. Maybe you agree with that?

It will be an eye-opener, but people of modern Greece aren't the same as Ancient greeks (in appearance, religion and even language - they don't speak Old Greek, do they?).

Dealing with such cases we should look at the present, and the present is a people living in the land called Macedonia. They have a perfect right to call themselves Macedoneans, Northern Macedoneans, or anything they like.


the message here is that FYROM can come up with any name that is proper to them without having to usurp one form their neighbors.
They have come up with one. If the NEIGHBORS don't like it, the problem is with neighbors, isn't it?

[Strike For The South]

Greeces economy is failing, people are unemployed, and fascism is rising. Yet here we are. Just give the continent to the bloody Germans.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Greeces economy is failing, people are unemployed, and fascism is rising. Yet here we are. Just give the continent to the bloody Germans.

lol

[Sarmatian]

Why Germans? They've shown that they only do well when you take away all their options but making cars.

I'd like an option to surrender to Norway. I'd do it in an instant, seriously.

[Gilrandir]

I'd like an option to surrender to Norway. I'd do it in an instant, seriously.

Nah, prices would just rocket.

[Husar]

Why Germans? They've shown that they only do well when you take away all their options but making cars.

I don't think our Carmorra is doing very well right now.

[CrossLOPER]

I don't think our Carmorra is doing very well right now.

????????????

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Commorragh

[Husar]

????????????

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Commorragh

What you linked is probably the goal, but so far they're more down to earth still:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camorra

[Suraknar]

The point is that there are evolutions of Historical significance which happen over time and are accepted as that part of history.

in the Cas eof FYROM it only recently had the opportunity to become a country and it tried to forge an identity which bellongs to its neigbor.

It is not the same thing.

And the logic that "Oh it happens there why not here"..."Oh other lie let me lie".."Oh others steals it is ok for me too"..is flawed and very primitive ethically.



The main blame was of stealing NAMES, not history. But OK, let's consider some more examples of stealing historic names: how can Greece fail to see that there is Alexandria in modern Egypt, where people don't speak Greek, don't pray to Greek gods (by the way people in modern Greece don't either) and are Arabs? Any demonstrations to condemn them?

That is because Egyptians did not steal it. Alexander The great founded Alexandria. Egypt had an Hellenization period, the name passed down history and it became part of its history. I am proud that Egyptians and Greek have shared history in the grand Human Journey.



AFAIK, there are two Athens in the USA and Ithaca as well. Any problems with that? I can go on for ever: how can Germany tolerate the name of France? Franks were a Germanic tribe and there is a region in Germany called Frankonia. I suggest renaming France into Former Roman Province of Gaul (FRPOG). I expect Mexico will voice its indigantion at New Mexico and California (since there is a peninsula of the same name in Mexico).

Not the same thing either. These are Cities and States or Provinces , Regional names, not Countries. It is homage and honor, not usurpation. French people do not Claim German History nevetheless. Americans living in Athens or Ithaka do not Claim Greek Identity and History. They are Americans.

You exaggerate in your examples here.


The world is full of similar cases, but it seems to bother only Greeks. Yes there are many such cases, but it is false to think that only Greek people are bothered. It bothers whomever is involved. Having said this, again the "They did it why not us" logic here. If others do not feel important to defend their history that is their problem. Greeks do.


It will be an eye-opener, but people of modern Greece aren't the same as Ancient greeks (in appearance, religion and even language - they don't speak Old Greek, do they?).

Really, do French speak Medieval French? Do English Speak Shakesperean or Victorian English? Languages evolve and change every 100 years. In 100 years from now no one will be speaking the same as 100 years ago. Your argument is fallacious and superficial.

And actually I can read still Ancient Greek and have moderate understanding of it as a Modern Greek Speaker. I can understand Byzantine (medieval Greek) even more. The closer to today the More I can understand naturally. Without having to study it.

Of course Greeks or today retain a very strong link to the Ancient Greeks, Biological and cultural, they are our ancestors.. It is only people outside Greece that often try to make a distinction. Inside Greece we laugh at them and their "conclusions".


Dealing with such cases we should look at the present, and the present is a people living in the land called Macedonia. They have a perfect right to call themselves Macedoneans, Northern Macedoneans, or anything they like.

If you think like this everyone has a right to call themselves what they wish. It doe snot make it right nevertheless. And this is the issue. The claim is disputed.

But it seems like the people of FYROM are comming to their senses:

http://www.pappaspost.com/reports-skopje-claim-removal-alexander-great-statue-name-change-airport-attempt-placate-greece/

http://www.pappaspost.com/fyrom-prime-minister-announces-drop-alexander-great-name-airport-highways/

http://www.pappaspost.com/fyrom-prime-minister-will-accept-geographical-designation-countrys-name/



They have come up with one. If the NEIGHBORS don't like it, the problem is with neighbors, isn't it?

No my friend. If I come to your house and steal your belonging is the problem with you or me? You can say it is with you because you did not protect your belongings. But I will say it is with me because stealing is not a Good thing to do as a sophisticated ethically responsible human being. In Greece, we call that Philotimo.

It all depends on what level of sophistication of Civilization you live. Apparently not very advanced one based on your arguments, but I will apply the benefit of the doubt in favor of a civil discussion and debate.

Cheers!

[Beskar]

So what happened is all the Greeks (and Ancient Macedonias) in existence returned to the modern borders of Greece and in that fleeting moment, wild untamed peoples from a lands unknown came and settled the region of Macedonia and dared to claim it as it own. So the region is devoid of a people who naturally grew under the Greek, Roman, Ottoman, Yugoslavian and now independent rule are nothing to do with the area until 30 years ago?

I am smelling something here...

[Sarmatian]

In some ways, it is at least silly to claim something as your own just because you ended up inhabiting the same region a millennium later.

And it is going to be a long term problem for modern day Macedonians if they try to be build their national identity around that. That being said, that is their problem, not Greece's so I don't quite agree with Greece refusing any inclusion of the word Macedonia.

[Montmorency]

Ah right, obligatory.


https://vimeo.com/118450542

Cross-post with Troy thread: African-Americans portraying Macedonians. No Caucasian is safe!

Sarmatian
Crandar
Suraknar



Technical help: I can see the embedded video in IE, but not in Chrome. Chrome seems to have changed a lot under the hood in the past year, and I feel like it has trouble with the forum formatting at times.

[Fragony]

In some ways, it is at least silly to claim something as your own just because you ended up inhabiting the same region a millennium later.

And it is going to be a long term problem for modern day Macedonians if they try to be build their national identity around that. That being said, that is their problem, not Greece's so I don't quite agree with Greece refusing any inclusion of the word Macedonia.

Don't we see that somewhere else as well.

@first part

[Husar]

Technical help: I can see the embedded video in IE, but not in Chrome. Chrome seems to have changed a lot under the hood in the past year, and I feel like it has trouble with the forum formatting at times.

My Edge says I need to enable Flash. I'm relatively sure many browsers including Chrome have disabled Flash per default because it is insecure old garbage. I'm not sure why Vimeo still uses it and not very eager to enable it.

On topic: The Greeks need to grow up and stop whining, they will be reunited with Macedonia via the EU anyway.

[Gilrandir]

That is because Egyptians did not steal it. Alexander The great founded Alexandria. Egypt had an Hellenization period, the name passed down history and it became part of its history. I am proud that Egyptians and Greek have shared history in the grand Human Journey.


:dizzy2: Then explain please what you mean by "stealing names". When ancestors of modern FYROM citizens came to the land and populated it and took its name - it is a theft. When ancestors of modern Egyptians (aka Arabs) came to the city and populated it and took its name it is not a theft, it is a matter of pride for the former owners. :dizzy2:




Not the same thing either. These are Cities and States or Provinces , Regional names, not Countries.

New Zealand is a country. Luxemburg is a country bearing the same name as a Belgian province. New Guinea is a country.
But my post was also of personal names. Why do you consider naming anything after Columbus and erecting his statues in the USA a norm, but naming things after ancient Macedoneans outside Greece a theft? Or if they built Alexander's statue in Alexandria it won't be a theft? :dizzy2:



French people do not Claim German History nevetheless. Americans living in Athens or Ithaka do not Claim Greek Identity and History. They are Americans.


But they claim the names which is a felony in itself, according to you.



Yes there are many such cases, but it is false to think that only Greek people are bothered. It bothers whomever is involved. Having said this, again the "They did it why not us" logic here. If others do not feel important to defend their history that is their problem. Greeks do.


Bothered? Now I know what is it when hundreds of thousands take to the streets - they show they are bothered. When Putin called Kyivites Volodymyr the Great and Yaroslav the Wise and Yaroslav's daughter Anna (the queen of France) (who all lived when there was no Russia and no Moscow or St. Petersburg) "Russian princes/princess" he got a portion of fun from Ukrainians including the officials - this is what being bothered means. But if it becomes a frenzy like the one we witnessed it is one more step to adopting legal documents - like the law on National Remembrance Institute Poland has adopted recently. If you aren't in the know - find out more about it and see where Greece is heading.



Really, do French speak Medieval French? Do English Speak Shakesperean or Victorian English? Languages evolve and change every 100 years. In 100 years from now no one will be speaking the same as 100 years ago. Your argument is fallacious and superficial.

And actually I can read still Ancient Greek and have moderate understanding of it as a Modern Greek Speaker. I can understand Byzantine (medieval Greek) even more. The closer to today the More I can understand naturally. Without having to study it.


You were the one who brought up the linguistic evidence to prove that there is no way modern Macedoneans are Macedoneans. Peoples can move around bringing their language with them, but the country which they settle anew may retain its former name - like Britain, for instance. So your advice is modern Brits should forget their Celtic and Roman heritage? Yo, Brits, demolish Boudicca's monuments (if there are any) and forget about Hadrian's Wall. Don't steal Welsh (Irish?) and Italian history.



Of course Greeks or today retain a very strong link to the Ancient Greeks, Biological and cultural, they are our ancestors.. It is only people outside Greece that often try to make a distinction. Inside Greece we laugh at them and their "conclusions".


You may laugh as much as you like. There was a time when people laughed their butts off when they were told that Sun moves round the Earth. As for the link: both aspects are moot. Biologically, the centuries under Turkish rule couldn't have passed without any impact left. Culturally, the religion (since in Middle Ages and much later it was the principle thing that determined culture) of Ancient Greece doesn't expose the said link.



If you think like this everyone has a right to call themselves what they wish. It doe snot make it right nevertheless. And this is the issue. The claim is disputed.


You should make up your own mind on the matter. Is it "not right" or is it "disputed"? The former choice leaves no room for any compromise while the latter paves way to negotiations.



But it seems like the people of FYROM are comming to their senses:

http://www.pappaspost.com/reports-skopje-claim-removal-alexander-great-statue-name-change-airport-attempt-placate-greece/

http://www.pappaspost.com/fyrom-prime-minister-announces-drop-alexander-great-name-airport-highways/

http://www.pappaspost.com/fyrom-prime-minister-will-accept-geographical-designation-countrys-name/


I would rather say that they are taking steps to a compromise.




No my friend. If I come to your house and steal your belonging is the problem with you or me? You can say it is with you because you did not protect your belongings. But I will say it is with me because stealing is not a Good thing to do as a sophisticated ethically responsible human being. In Greece, we call that Philotimo.

It all depends on what level of sophistication of Civilization you live. Apparently not very advanced one based on your arguments, but I will apply the benefit of the doubt in favor of a civil discussion and debate.


This is where the shoe pinches! You still consider this country "your house"? You should have started with it then we all would understand your argument much better.

As for stealing: if you lived in Elm Street and then moved out and another family came to live in your house they have all the right to call themselves Elm Street dwellers and find out more about its history and be proud of it - because THEY LIVE THERE NOW. It is as much their street and history as it was (and is) yours. All the USA follow this principle, I believe.

Anyway, your country is called Greece. They "try to usurp" the name of Macedonia, not Greece.

[Crandar]

Ah right, obligatory.


https://vimeo.com/118450542

Cross-post with Troy thread: African-Americans portraying Macedonians. No Caucasian is safe!

Sarmatian
Crandar
Suraknar



Technical help: I can see the embedded video in IE, but not in Chrome. Chrome seems to have changed a lot under the hood in the past year, and I feel like it has trouble with the forum formatting at times.
Kebab is tasteless anyway. It's a cultural theft of the original gyros, pork meat sliced carefully and enriched with onion, mustard, tomato and potato (the last two, contrary to the popular perception, are Byzantine discoveries).

Ironically enough, just when the conservatives began to gain brownie points thanks to the dispute, a new corruption scandal has emerged.

It implicates our commissioner in the EU and two former prime-ministers, including Anthony Samaras, who has connected his name with the issue, when he provoked the collapse of the '90-93 government, by refusing to cooperate with its conciliatory stance.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42969557

[ConjurerDragon]

The Greeks who oppose any form of 'Macedonia' from the name are the petty ones. Suggestions such as 'New Macedonia'/'North Macedonia'/etc are perfectly valid especially since the country is within the region of Macedonia (though the region is a lot bigger) so denying them any form of name is being selfish. It would be like Ireland taking umbrage over the fact Northern Ireland has 'Ireland' in its name, suggesting it should be called 'Belfast' using the term 'Belfastians' when addressing the people living there, using excuses such as the protestant majorities living there instead of catholic majorities.

A better example would be Wales becoming independant under the name "Brittania" (which obviously does not belong to anglo-saxon-norman invaders of the british isles). I doubt that the United Kingdom would be amused.

Or turn the Ireland example around - the unionists are certainly not amused that Ireland sees the entire island including "northern" ireland/Ulster as rightful part of their state and their declared goal is one day to unite it (and with Brexit that will come up for discussion again as that will mean an EU-UK border in Ireland).

Names can imply claims and any country should be wary about that. Especially Greece that was occupied or invaded by nearly all of it’s neighbours.

[Crandar]

The only neighbor that has invaded and occupied part of Greece is Bulgaria.

[Gilrandir]

Kebab is tasteless anyway. It's a cultural theft of the original gyros, pork meat sliced carefully and enriched with onion, mustard, tomato and potato (the last two, contrary to the popular perception, are Byzantine discoveries).


Byzantine was no more for half a century before Columbus ever came to the New World with its tomatoes and potatoes.

[Crandar]

Byzantine was no more for half a century before Columbus ever came to the New World with its tomatoes and potatoes.
Second time (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152740-This-is-how-you-shatter-a-glass-ceilling&p=2053751363&viewfull=1#post2053751363)you force me to use this image:
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/list/000/992/384/ded.gif

[Montmorency]

Second time (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152740-This-is-how-you-shatter-a-glass-ceilling&p=2053751363&viewfull=1#post2053751363)you force me to use this image:
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/list/000/992/384/ded.gif

It took a minute for me, at least.


Here's a direct link to the official video for people who don't want to deal with Vimeo: Macedonian Cafe (http://www.cc.com/video-clips/6oy84e/key-and-peele-macedonian-cafe)


If Macedonians want to use that name for the same reasons Greeks don't want them to use it...

[Noncommunist]

They really ought to resolve it by having Serbia annex the country and province of Macedonia as well as Epirus while Turkey occupies the rest of Greece until they come to a sensible solution. Or Turkey and Serbia could just decide to annex the rest of the Balkans and form a neo-Byzantine Empire except with Serbs and Turks in charge instead of the Greeks that mucked it up last time.

[Sarmatian]

But I don't want to annex Macedonia. Please no. Have you seen Macedonia?

Parts of Greece, ok. There are some nice beaches and islands.

I'd really like Serbia's annexation in the future to be limited to nice places like Seychelles, Maldives, Malta, Copacabana...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

They really ought to resolve it by having Serbia annex the country and province of Macedonia as well as Epirus while Turkey occupies the rest of Greece until they come to a sensible solution. Or Turkey and Serbia could just decide to annex the rest of the Balkans and form a neo-Byzantine Empire except with Serbs and Turks in charge instead of the Greeks that mucked it up last time.

Good luck with this. I can see only a few potential problem issues with this.

Of course, by a few, I mean requiring scientific notation to keep it short enough to read.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...If Macedonians want to use that name for the same reasons Greeks don't want them to use it...

That is often a factor in "identity" centered conflicts. As with same sex marriage here in the USA, no other label was acceptable. A civil union with the exact same rights and privileges or government referring to all marriages as civil unions would not have been and was not acceptable because the use of the SAME label had been conflated with the identity expressions of the aggrieved.

Identity is, I have believed for some time, the most powerful of needs-level motivation.

[Sarmatian]

It took a minute for me, at least.


Here's a direct link to the official video for people who don't want to deal with Vimeo: Macedonian Cafe (http://www.cc.com/video-clips/6oy84e/key-and-peele-macedonian-cafe)


If Macedonians want to use that name for the same reasons Greeks don't want them to use it...

Ok, I laughed.

[Husar]

Here's a direct link to the official video for people who don't want to deal with Vimeo: Macedonian Cafe (http://www.cc.com/video-clips/6oy84e/key-and-peele-macedonian-cafe)

"Sorry 'bout that. This video is not available from your location."

You're obviously trolling me now. ~;p ~;)

[ConjurerDragon]

The only neighbor that has invaded and occupied part of Greece is Bulgaria.

That depends on the definiton. Even if you try to narrow it down to say "only occupied parts of the modern greek state" it would not be correct.

There was Serbia in the time of Stefan Dusan
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ce/Byzantine1355.PNG
the Ottomans or rather the Turks for quite a long time (and as you wrote part bold implying that full occupation would not count I have to point out that they never occupied the whole of Greece as some parts were venetian),
Italy during roman times, before WW2 the Dodekanes that they took from the Ottomans with Lybia and during WW2.
Bulgaria during the Bulgarian 1st and 2nd empire and in WW2.
So that Greece is wary that someone might use an ancient name to claim part of their lands is understandable.

[Crandar]

Sorry, but that's not a very convincing argument, every region has been invaded and occupied by a huge variety of people. Does this mean that France should be worried of Italy, Spain, Germany and Switzerland?

By that logic, Greece has also invaded all its neighbors, including Bulgaria, Turkey, Albania, Serbia, Italy and Cyprus. All fear the imperialist Greek hordes!
Nah, it doesn't work like that. In what concerns the modern states, parts of Greece has only been occupied (twice) by Bulgaria. We also occupied parts of them twice, so we're square now.

[Sarmatian]

Serbia stronk!

[ConjurerDragon]

Sorry, but that's not a very convincing argument, every region has been invaded and occupied by a huge variety of people. Does this mean that France should be worried of Italy, Spain, Germany and Switzerland?

Absolutely - once any of those neighbours starts using names in that region as if they were his own and is no longer an obvious ally. So if Germany/Austria and Italy would at one point no longer be allies in NATO and EU and the former start talking about "Südtirol" regarding national politics again instead of Alto Adige that would be a point where I could see Italy starting to worry about the use of names.



By that logic, Greece has also invaded all its neighbors, including Bulgaria, Turkey, Albania, Serbia, Italy and Cyprus. All fear the imperialist Greek hordes!

Yes, but they no longer claim the use of those lands as their own. They don’t even call themselves the Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire anymore but Greece. "Macedonia" on the other hand claims a name of a historical region that they only partially control as their own name, despite being Bulgarians who have been brainwashed too long in Yugoslavia to be willing to acknowledge that and think they actually have something to do with ancient Macedonia. That is a s silly as some turkish scientists claiming that the turks descend from the Hithites and Anatolia always was their ancient home.

[Sarmatian]

Absolutely - once any of those neighbours starts using names in that region as if they were his own and is no longer an obvious ally. So if Germany/Austria and Italy would at one point no longer be allies in NATO and EU and the former start talking about "Südtirol" regarding natioal politics again instead of Alto Adige that would be a point where I could see Italy starting to worry about the use of names.



Yes, but they no longer claim the use of those lands as their own. They don’t even call themselves the Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire anymore but Greece. "Macedonia" on the other hand claims a name of a historical region that they only partially control as their own name, despite being Bulgarians who have been brainwashed too long in Yugoslavia to be willing to acknowledge that and think they actually have something to do with ancient Macedonia. That is a s silly as some turkish scientists claiming that the turks descend from the Hithites and Anatolia always was their ancient home.

I think brainwashing is a general Bulgarian theme, not really region specific

[Fragony]

Oh really, your region could get into trouble once again, I dispise the EU but with the Balkans it might prevent you guys from clawing out eachtother for a while.Complicated place.

[Crandar]

Absolutely - once any of those neighbours starts using names in that region as if they were his own and is no longer an obvious ally. So if Germany/Austria and Italy would at one point no longer be allies in NATO and EU and the former start talking about "Südtirol" regarding natioal politics again instead of Alto Adige that would be a point where I could see Italy starting to worry about the use of names.
Yes, but they no longer claim the use of those lands as their own. They don’t even call themselves the Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire anymore but Greece. "Macedonia" on the other hand claims a name of a historical region that they only partially control as their own name, despite being Bulgarians who have been brainwashed too long in Yugoslavia to be willing to acknowledge that and think they actually have something to do with ancient Macedonia. That is a s silly as some turkish scientists claiming that the turks descend from the Hithites and Anatolia always was their ancient home.
Everyone is free to identify however he wants. If the people of FYROM feel as Macedonians, then they are free to do so, especially considering that they have officially and constitutionally rejected irredentism.

They are not brainwashed, opposition to Bulgarian identity existed even during the Ottoman times, check Sandanski for example. When Bulgarians oppressed them in WWII, it's reasonable to expect that any Bulgarian sympathies that might have existed disappeared.
Also, your original argument about Greece's allegedly justified insecurity was that all most of its neighbors invaded in the past, regardless of any name disputes, so I ask again:
Should France be worried about Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Belgium?

[Fragony]

Everyone is free to identify however he wants. If the people of FYROM feel as Macedonians, then they are free to do so, especially considering that they have officially and constitutionally rejected irredentism.

They are not brainwashed, opposition to Bulgarian identity existed even during the Ottoman times, check Sandanski for example. When Bulgarians oppressed them in WWII, it's reasonable to expect that any Bulgarian sympathies that might have existed disappeared.
Also, your original argument about Greece's allegedly justified insecurity was that all most of its neighbors invaded in the past, regardless of any name disputes, so I ask again:
Should France be worried about Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Belgium?

Switzerland can be scrapped. These other countries, yeah France should be worried about them, if these countries fall apart there will be less free money for them. They can, especially Itally, but Belgium as well.

[ConjurerDragon]

Switzerland can be scrapped. These other countries, yeah France should be worried about them, if these countries fall apart there will be less free money for them. They can, especially Itally, but Belgium as well.

You forget the militant and violent history of Switzerland. :book2:
They did not only once control the northernmost parts of nowadays northern Italy (the areas in light green and the white areas with green lining in the southeast of that map of the "Acht alte Orte"/the eight old towns as Switzerland at that time was known
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Territoriale-Entwicklung-CH.png/775px-Territoriale-Entwicklung-CH.png
but made for a short while the Duchy of Milan a swiss protectorate.

[ConjurerDragon]

Everyone is free to identify however he wants.

Everyone? So you think the practice of locking people up and medically treat those who identify as the Emperor of China or Napoleon is an overreaction of society? :bow:



If the people of FYROM feel as Macedonians, then they are free to do so, especially considering that they have officially and constitutionally rejected irredentism.

Yes. Sure. Everone rejects irredentism. That is - until the time that suddenly a state has changed and become more authoritarian and needs to distract from interior problems and then just happens to have "claims" or "ancient divided homelands" under the oppressive occupation of clearly evil whatever-ists that are the enemy at the time.

Just look at China and how the communists there keep on claiming areas that once belonged to the manchurian Quing-Empire. Next those Chinese claim that the mongolian Yuan-Dynasty was not a foreign invader ruling China but a chinese Dynasty and all mongolian lands should be united under their benevolent rulership again. That is after they secured the Spratley Islands in the south chinese sea. Really hard to say that those islands are not chinese when they are in the so named "south China" sea...



They are not brainwashed, opposition to Bulgarian identity existed even during the Ottoman times, check Sandanski for example.

The guy who started as a bulgarian freedomfighter against ottoman oppression who cooperated with the Young Turks and who was a member of an extremist minority of people who wanted a USSR like balkans in which Macedonia would be a politically autonomous entity without claiming that they were ethnically something else than Bulgarians?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yane_Sandanski#Controversy



When Bulgarians oppressed them in WWII, it's reasonable to expect that any Bulgarian sympathies that might have existed disappeared.
Also, your original argument about Greece's allegedly justified insecurity was that all most of its neighbors invaded in the past, regardless of any name disputes, so I ask again:
Should France be worried about Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Belgium?

Sure - IF those nowadays friends and allys at one point in the future should no longer be allies and at that time should start to demand the use "Atrecht" instead of Arras or claim that Belgium has to rule from Ryssel (Lille) to Brüssel (Brussels), yes then France should be worried that some lunatics up there are up to something strange.
And if, in a hypothetical future where the EU and NATO do no longer unite both countries, some catalan/spanish politicians would start naming the Rousillon "Northern Catalonia", german politicians Haut-Alsace "Elsaß-Lothringen" and italian politicians murmur about Nizza/Nice then yes, I could see the french politely pointing out that those areas have french names and no longer a connection that should be used for irredentist dreams.

The difference is that Macedonia while it is a candidate for both, is not yet part of the EU and NATO. And I can understand that Greece would block their entry until their issue has been solved. After all we no longer have the Cold War and Turkey being too useful in that time to deny them entry into NATO.

[Fragony]

You forget the militant and violent history of Switzerland. :book2:
They did not only once control the northernmost parts of nowadays northern Italy (the areas in light green and the white areas with green lining in the southeast of that map of the "Acht alte Orte"/the eight old towns as Switzerland at that time was known
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Territoriale-Entwicklung-CH.png/775px-Territoriale-Entwicklung-CH.png
but made for a short while the Duchy of Milan a swiss protectorate.

Everything in Europe has a violent history , that's kinda who we are. I wouldn't underestimate the instability in Belgium, the only thing that keeps it intact is that the Flemish dislike the Dutch more, I don't like Belgium there's this passive agression when you are from the Netherlands, if stares could kill I would be dead they really dislike Dutch people. But they don't need us to dislike eachother they are very good at hating eachother. Italy is kinda different, north and south, north is rich, south is poor

[Gilrandir]

Sure - IF those nowadays friends and allys at one point in the future should no longer be allies and at that time should start to demand the use "Atrecht" instead of Arras or claim that Belgium has to rule from Ryssel (Lille) to Brüssel (Brussels), yes then France should be worried that some lunatics up there are up to something strange.
And if, in a hypothetical future where the EU and NATO do no longer unite both countries, some catalan/spanish politicians would start naming the Rousillon "Northern Catalonia", german politicians Haut-Alsace "Elsaß-Lothringen" and italian politicians murmur about Nizza/Nice then yes, I could see the french politely pointing out that those areas have french names and no longer a connection that should be used for irredentist dreams.

The difference is that Macedonia while it is a candidate for both, is not yet part of the EU and NATO. And I can understand that Greece would block their entry until their issue has been solved. After all we no longer have the Cold War and Turkey being too useful in that time to deny them entry into NATO.

It is a natural thing for places and cities situated near the border to have names in different languages. Like in Südtirol. But it doesn't mean that Italy has to worry about Austria voicing its claim to it.

[spmetla]

There is still a Südtirol 'freedom' movement:
http://www.suedtiroler-freiheit.com/south-tyrolean-freedom-movement/

The South-Tyrolean
Freedom Movement – Free Alliance for South-Tyrol “SÜD-TIROLER FREIHEIT – Freies Bündnis für Tirol” is a liberal-patriotic alliance which claims the right of self-determination for the South-Tyrolean people.

Our country has been occupied since 1918 by the Italian central government but our resistance against this injustice still persists. Approximately 350.000 German-speaking Tyroleans live in this annexed area continuing their struggle to keep alive their traditions and customs, but it is a challenge to maintain our cultural heritage in a foreign national state. Moreover Italy is on the verge of bankruptcy, and even our very rich region suffers greatly because of the economic inability of the Italian central government. From our point of view the only way to remain a prosperous region is to separate from the Italian national state.

As for Austria, it still does continue to meddle in the politics of Südtirol:
https://www.ft.com/content/c4d5ef34-e4d2-11e7-8b99-0191e45377ec


Austria’s new coalition government, which includes the far-right Freedom party, has angered politicians in Rome with plans to offer citizenship to people living in the South Tyrol region of north Italy.

Sebastian Kurz, who became Austrian chancellor on Monday, said he would consult with the country’s southern neighbour over the move, adding that his relations with Italy were “excellent”.

However, the idea, inserted into the government’s programme at the Freedom party’s request, raised immediate concerns from Italian government officials.

“What we are hearing today from Vienna is not European music but one of nationalist closure,” Benedetto Della Vedova, undersecretary in the foreign ministry, wrote on Facebook. Angelino Alfano, Italy’s foreign minister, warned that the “delicate” issue should be treated “in terms that are coherent with our history”.

The clash served as an early warning of the possible tensions created by the entry into the Austrian government of the fiercely nationalist Freedom party.


Just like with the issue of the Irish border and Northern Ireland the migrant crisis has exasperated the issue of Südtirol. When Austria reintroduced border checks on the Italian border it reopened the reality to those in Südtirol that they were very much part of Italy despite the open EU borders making that less of an issue.

[ConjurerDragon]

It is a natural thing for places and cities situated near the border to have names in different languages. Like in Südtirol. But it doesn't mean that Italy has to worry about Austria voicing its claim to it.

You just omitted 2/3rds of my post you quoted. I do not see the use of Südtirol as a problem as long as Italy, Austria and Germany are all in the EU and NATO and guarantee each others borders. Only, as I already wrote, if that would be not the case anymore and e.g. the nationalist movements in Austria and Germany gain more votes and those politians consciously used "Südtirol" to imply that the area is just the southern tip of Tyrol (the one in Austria) and belongs to the other side of the border - then I could see Italy get worried.

Just like Tyrol Macedonia is split by a border and depending on who uses that name the state on the other side of the border would not be amused.

As you have Ukraine as location what about Russians using names like "little Russia" instead of Ukraine that imply that Ukraine is not really a state of it’s own but a part of the triunion of Great Russians, White Russians and Little Russians? I mean the Ukraine already has seen what can happen if a neighbour sees part of another state as part of his own...

[Gilrandir]

You just omitted 2/3rds of my post you quoted. I do not see the use of Südtirol as a problem as long as Italy, Austria and Germany are all in the EU and NATO and guarantee each others borders. Only, as I already wrote, if that would be not the case anymore and e.g. the nationalist movements in Austria and Germany gain more votes and those politians consciously used "Südtirol" to imply that the area is just the southern tip of Tyrol (the one in Austria) and belongs to the other side of the border - then I could see Italy get worried.

Just like Tyrol Macedonia is split by a border and depending on who uses that name the state on the other side of the border would not be amused.

As you have Ukraine as location what about Russians using names like "little Russia" instead of Ukraine that imply that Ukraine is not really a state of it’s own but a part of the triunion of Great Russians, White Russians and Little Russians? I mean the Ukraine already has seen what can happen if a neighbour sees part of another state as part of his own...

Russia may use the name of "Little Russia" with a derogatory purpose INSTEAD of the modern/real name (Ukraine). Macedonia doesn't have any other name, Südtirol as a rule has two names for its locations. That is why I don't see a problem in parallel using of different lanuage names for places with an ethnically/linguistically mixed population.

[Suraknar]

:dizzy2: Then explain please what you mean by "stealing names". When ancestors of modern FYROM citizens came to the land and populated it and took its name - it is a theft. When ancestors of modern Egyptians (aka Arabs) came to the city and populated it and took its name it is not a theft, it is a matter of pride for the former owners. :dizzy2:

Lets give some continuation here.

First of all you seem to not be fully aware of the situation. This conflict between Greece and FYROM is not only about the name.

When FYROM made its constitution after the break up of Yugoslavia, it put in its Constitution a claim of territory which extends from Italy to and including northern Greece.

It made that claim via revisionist History claiming that the people there are descendants of the Ancient Macedonians and therefore the territory belongs to them and their purpose of existing as a country has as goal to reclaim what is "theirs" via the ancestral link to Ancient Macedonians.

They erected Statues of Alexander the Great, Phillip II and even tried to appropriate of the emblem of Ancient MAcedonians for their flag to validate the ancestral link and validate the present claim and justify the constitution.

And you expect Greece and Greek people to accept this?

Not even Itally likes it as part of their claim extends to Italian territory.

Do you really think that Greek people are that gullible and will sit idle while theft is being perpetrated?



This is where the shoe pinches! You still consider this country "your house"? You should have started with it then we all would understand your argument much better.

As for stealing: if you lived in Elm Street and then moved out and another family came to live in your house they have all the right to call themselves Elm Street dwellers and find out more about its history and be proud of it - because THEY LIVE THERE NOW. It is as much their street and history as it was (and is) yours. All the USA follow this principle, I believe.

Anyway, your country is called Greece. They "try to usurp" the name of Macedonia, not Greece.

This is maybe where your show pinches. You are not fully aware of what is going on and you are twisting everything in to a trivial thing claiming that the Greek people somehow are over reacting about a name. And in my analogy I meant my Home being Greece, Fyrom came to steal from Greek History to form its self based on a lie. And it is not correct to do this..and the Grek people were provoked by that action.

And now now that they have been provoked, not only should the Ancient Macedonian Links be corrected and removed (Alexander The Great statues, Emblems and Airport names removed and changed), but most Greeks will also claim that no use whatsoever should remain whatsoever.

I expect Tsipras to accept something like "New Macedonia" or "Vardar Macedonia" these are all names that are being evaluated by both sides. But there will be no compromise about the claims of territory in the constitution of FYROM.

The present people of the region have no claim to the Ancient Macedonia, not its ancestral territory in Greece in Bulgaria in Albania, Serbia, Croatia or Italy.

I personally still think that "Republic of Vardar" would solve so many problems and let the people of FYROM create their own Identity that they can be proud of and join in own respect and all equality the rest of nations and prosper all together in peace.

[Gilrandir]

When FYROM made its constitution after the break up of Yugoslavia, it put in its Constitution a claim of territory which extends from Italy to and including northern Greece.
It made that claim via revisionist History claiming that the people there are descendants of the Ancient Macedonians and therefore the territory belongs to them and their purpose of existing as a country has as goal to reclaim what is "theirs" via the ancestral link to Ancient Macedonians.
They erected Statues of Alexander the Great, Phillip II and even tried to appropriate of the emblem of Ancient MAcedonians for their flag to validate the ancestral link and validate the present claim and justify the constitution.


Here I link an article from a Greek source and the constitution of The Country Which You Want To Have Some Other Name.
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2018/01/24/time-bombs-in-fyrom-constitution-alarm-greece/
http://www.sobranie.mk/the-constitution-of-the-republic-of-macedonia.nspx

I would like you to show parts in the latter which will substatiate your claims about Macedonean territorial claims.

But from what you say and slogans I saw Greeks carrying ("Macedonia is Greece") I would rather say the opposite: it looks like Greeks still dream of absorbing the lands which they still consider their own.



This is maybe where your show pinches. You are not fully aware of what is going on and you are twisting everything in to a trivial thing claiming that the Greek people somehow are over reacting about a name. And in my analogy I meant my Home being Greece, Fyrom came to steal from Greek History to form its self based on a lie. And it is not correct to do this..and the Grek people were provoked by that action.

All this could be accepted from a country called Macedonia. But the country who voices its indignation is called Greece. Rename your country into Macedonia and then go to war about plagiarism.



And now now that they have been provoked, not only should the Ancient Macedonian Links be corrected and removed (Alexander The Great statues, Emblems and Airport names removed and changed), but most Greeks will also claim that no use whatsoever should remain whatsoever.

The present people of the region have no claim to the Ancient Macedonia, not its ancestral territory in Greece in Bulgaria in Albania, Serbia, Croatia or Italy.


If we start talking about ancestral territories we will have to uproot and expel a good many modern nations - all those living in the Americas, the English, Arabs (outside KSA), Hungarians...



I personally still think that "Republic of Vardar" would solve so many problems and let the people of FYROM create their own Identity that they can be proud of and join in own respect and all equality the rest of nations and prosper all together in peace.

I personally think that Greece SHOULD solve so many problems it has currently which will help her keep some of its ancestral territory from being sold to pay off the debts.

[Sarmatian]

Consitution of FYROM actually states explicitly:

1. The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighboring state.

[Crandar]

Girlandir is right, there are no territorial claims in the Constitution. In fact, article has been amended since 1995 to include the sentence below:

1. The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighboring state.
I doubt even the original version spoke about expansion in Italy or Greece. Can you provide a source for that?
Everyone has some genetic ancestry to Philip.
Given how the core of the kingdom was populated at large (http://www.imma.edu.gr/imma/history/12.html) by Slavic-speaking populations (even after the population exchange of 1923), it is not absurd to assume any genetic continuation, on the basis of slavicised Romans and intermarriage. Even if there wasn't, these arguments are not based on international laws or legal precedents.

[spmetla]

They erected Statues of Alexander the Great, Phillip II and even tried to appropriate of the emblem of Ancient MAcedonians for their flag to validate the ancestral link and validate the present claim and justify the constitution.

And you expect Greece and Greek people to accept this?
Of course they erect statures to Alexander the Great and Philip II. They might not be his cultural descendants but it is part of the local history that their region participated in. They are a new nation and are trying to create a sense of national identity that is not Bulgarian or Serbian which pretty much requires them to stretch back to beyond their ethnic groups entry into the region. The US when it was formed (after the adoption of the constitution) gave itself all the airs of the Roman Republic as part of trying to create a new identity apart from just being English colonists that aren't really English anymore.

As for Greeks having to accept it, well yes, you need to. It's another sovereign country, you can't really dictate what they do. Honestly it'd probably be in your interest in encouraging it. The more Greek they think they are the more likely they'll identify with the actual Hellenic Greeks. The height of Hellenic civilization was when Greek thoughts and ideas were spread throughout the near east and not exclusively to ethnic greeks and macedonians. Encourage and welcome the FYROM to think they are greeks as well and you'll a friendlier partner to the north instead of a hotbed of unrest and resentment. Expand the 'Greek Franchise' to your own cultural benefit, promote your Greek language and history to your own benefit. The FYROM is too poor and weak to be a threat to the Hellenic Republic, try using soft power to make it a friend though.

[Sarmatian]

Well, modern Macedonians don't identify themselves with the Hellenes, but rather their own distorted view of ancient Macedonians who supposedly conquered Greece.

They're trying to take Macedonians out of Hellenic culture group.

It is silly beyond measure, but not illegal.

[Crandar]

Haha, we conquered it and we are proud of it, bloody, stinky southerners. Is there anything sweeter than Macedonians civilizing southern barbarians in Chaeronea or forcing Demosthenes to drink tsipouro? They deserved everything, hadn't been for pesky Romans, the capital would be Thessaloniki, not that slum known as Athens. Fun and real fact: In the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, there is a great interest for one of our favourite Roman generals, Sulla. Can you guess why?https://image.ibb.co/no0tdS/shifty4ib.gif

[Suraknar]

All this could be accepted from a country called Macedonia. But the country who voices its indignation is called Greece. Rename your country into Macedonia and then go to war about plagiarism.

If we start talking about ancestral territories we will have to uproot and expel a good many modern nations - all those living in the Americas, the English, Arabs (outside KSA), Hungarians...


I think you are promoting a false narrative here. The issue with Macedonia is not new, it dates back to the aftermath of WWII and even a bit before, it became more serious after the break-up of Yugoslavia.

Your false narrative here consists of claiming that Greece is the apparent aggressor of this whole issue when in fact Greece is the defender.

If that was the case then, FYROM would not have made any Amendments to its constitution or take steps to change its Flag and drop Claims to ancient Macedon. It has taken these steps because it was pointed out that it was in the wrong and now it is making amense.



Consitution of FYROM actually states explicitly:

1. The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighboring state.

This is actually an amendment to the constitution which came later than the initial declaration of 1991.

And this is all positive, and helps in advancing towards a resolution of this dispute between the two countries.

------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------

Now as far as the people of Greece which has issues with all this it all stems form the following.

Present day citizens of FYROM have no relation to the Ancient Greek people of Macedon.

On the other hand there are 2.5 million Greeks of today that have a relation to the Ancient Greeks of Macedon, live in the Province of Macedonia in Greece and call themselves Macedonians... Just as I call myself Athenian. We are still Greeks.

I don't know if you can understand this but even today when Greeks meet with one another one fo the first questions we will ask is from which part of Greece are you? "Ahh you are Spartan" or "Ahh you are Macedonian", or "Ahh you are Pontian" or "Ahh you are Cretean, Lemnoan, Thessalian, Epirotic etc" is quite common.

Greeks even today identify with their region. Athenians, Corinthians, Macedonians, Spartans etc.

And the Macedonians are concerned when a neighboring country calls itself the same as them without being them...

I do not want to rewrite what has already been written but instead let me copy past a few passages form here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute#Territorial_concerns


According to historian Eugene Borza, the ethnic Macedonians, being "a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimise their precarious present" whose ethnicity developed in the twentieth century, had no history and needed one.[221]

Greeks argue that the name Macedonia is historically inseparably associated with Greek culture, ever since the ancient kingdom of Macedonia and the ancient Macedonians. They therefore consider that only Greeks have a historical right to use the name today, since the modern southern Slavs arrived 1,000 years after that kingdom, lacking any relation to ancient Macedonia or its Greek culture.[37] Efforts by ethnic Macedonians to construct a narrative of ethnic continuity linking them to the ancient Macedonians in various ways[222] and symbolic actions underlining such claims, such as the public use of the Vergina sun symbol as a flag of the Republic of Macedonia, or the renaming of Skopje Airport to "Alexander the Great Airport"[223] meet strong criticism from the Greek side, much of the international media that report on the issue, and even from moderate political views in the Republic of Macedonia itself.[224][225][226]

A 22-meter tall statue, "Man on a Horse," depicting Alexander the Great was erected in 2011 in Skopje, the capital city of the Republic of Macedonia, as part of a historical public arts building campaign.[227][228] Greece scornfully characterised the effort, with the foreign ministry commenting on the size of the statue as "inversely proportional to seriousness and historical truth".[229][230] The project received criticism by the European Union, calling it "not helpful"[229] as well as by Skopje architects and ethnic Macedonian academics[230] and politicians[81] commenting on the aesthetic outcome and the semantics of such a move.

Some Greek historians emphasise the late emergence of a "Macedonian" nation, often pointing to 1944 as the date of its "artificial" creation under Josip Broz Tito, discounting earlier roots in the 19th and early 20th century.[231]

The Greek view also stresses that the name Macedonia as a geographical term historically used to refer typically to the southern, Greek parts of the region (including the capital of the ancient kingdom, Pella), and not or only marginally to the territory of today's Republic. They also note that the territory was not called Macedonia as a political entity until 1944.

Several hundred international and Greek classical scholars have lobbied for the historical concerns regarding the name dispute to be reflected in US policy.[232][233]

[...]

During the Greek Civil War, in 1947 the Greek Ministry of Press and Information published a book, Ἡ ἐναντίον τῆς Ἑλλάδος ἐπιβουλή (Designs on Greece), including documents and speeches on the ongoing Macedonian issue, many translations from Yugoslav officials. It reports Josip Broz Tito using the term "Aegean Macedonia" on 11 October 1945 in the buildup to the Greek Civil War; the original document is archived in ‘GFM A/24581/G2/1945’. For Athens in 1947, the "new term, Aegean Macedonia", (also "Pirin Macedonia"), was introduced by Yugoslavs. Contextually, this observation indicates this was part of the Yugoslav offensive against Greece, laying claim to Greek Macedonia, but Athens does not seem to take issue with the term itself. The 1945 date concurs with Bulgarian sources.

Tito's wartime representative to Macedonia, General Tempo (Svetozar Vukmanovic), is credited with promoting the usage of the new regional names of the Macedonian region for irredentist purposes. Concerns over territorial implications of the usage of the term "Macedonian" were expressed as early as 1944 by US diplomats.[234]

Greece suspects that the Republic of Macedonia has territorial ambitions in the northern Greek provinces of Macedonia. This has been a Greek concern for decades; as far back as 1957, the Greek government expressed concern about reported Yugoslav ambitions to create an "independent" People's Republic of Macedonia with the Greek city of Thessaloniki as its capital,[235] ambitions that now exist amongst citizens of the Republic of Macedonia.[236]

Loring M. Danforth ascribes the goal of a "free, united, and independent Macedonia" including "liberated" Bulgarian and Greek territory to a fraction of extreme Macedonian nationalists, whereas more moderate ethnic Macedonians recognise the inviolability of the borders but regard the presence of ethnic Macedonians in the neighbouring countries as an issue of minority protection.[237]

Greek analysts[238] and politicians[239] have expressed concerns that overseas observers tend to overlook or not to understand the severity of the perceived territorial threat and tend to misunderstand the conflict as a trivial issue over just a name.

The concerns are further reinforced by the fact that extremist ethnic Macedonian nationalists of the "United Macedonia" movement have expressed irredentist claims to what they refer to as "Aegean Macedonia" (in Greece),[235][240][241] "Pirin Macedonia" (in Bulgaria),[242] "Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo" (in Albania),[243] and "Gora and Prohor Pchinski" (in Serbia).[244]

Greek Macedonians, Bulgarians, Albanians and Serbs form the overwhelming majority of the population of each part of the region respectively.

Schoolbooks and official government publications in the Republic have shown the country as part of an unliberated whole.[222][245][246][247]

In April 2008, Foreign Minister of Greece Dora Bakoyannis complained about the prime minister of the Republic of Macedonia Nikola Gruevski appearing in a photograph, by a map of "Greater Macedonia". The complaint was made inside an article published at Wall Street Journal, regarding the NATO ascension talks.[107]

[...]

According to both the official Greek position[37] and various public demonstrations in Greece[248] and the Greek diaspora,[10] the Greek Macedonians feel that their right to self-determination is violated by what they regard as the monopolisation of their name by a neighbouring country.

The strong regional identity of the Macedonians was emphasised by the Prime Minister of Greece, Kostas Karamanlis, who in January 2007 during a meeting of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg declared that:

I am a Macedonian, just like two and a half million Greeks.[249]

In Greece, the extreme position on the issue suggests that there must be "no Macedonia in the title" of a neighbouring country.[250]

Professor Danforth reports:

From the Greek nationalist perspective, then, the use of the name "Macedonian" by the "Slavs of Skopje" constitutes a "felony", an "act of plagiarism" against the Greek people. By calling themselves "Macedonians" the Slavs are "stealing" a Greek name; they are "embezzling" Greek cultural heritage; they are "falsifying" Greek history. As Evangelos Kofos, a historian employed by the Greek Foreign Ministry told a foreign reporter, "It is as if a robber came into my house and stole my most precious jewels—my history, my culture, my identity".[237]

More moderate positions suggest that a disambiguating element should be added to the name of the neighbouring state and its people (such as "Vardar" or "New"), so as to illustrate the distinction between not just the two, but all groups of self-identifying Macedonian

[...]

The contemporary region of Macedonia is a wider region in the Balkan peninsula that spans across several modern states, mainly Greece (Greek Macedonia), Bulgaria (Blagoevgrad province), the Republic of Macedonia, and Albania (around Lake Ohrid). The definite borders of the region are vague, but most contemporary geographers agree on its general location.[256] There are several ethnic groups in this region, mostly living within their respective states, all of which are technically "Macedonians" in the regional sense. The Republic itself, has a substantial minority (25.2%) of ethnic Albanians who are "Macedonians" both in the regional sense, and as legal citizens of the Republic.[251][257] However, in a Balkans where ethnicity rather than nationhood defines peoples' identity, Albanians are never referred to (or refer to themselves) as Macedonians.[258]

The Greek position suggests that the monopolisation of the name by the Republic and its citizens creates semiological confusion, as it becomes increasingly difficult to disambiguate which "Macedonia", which "Macedonians" and what "Macedonian language" are referred to in each occasion.

According to a source Bulgarians living in Blagoevgrad province (Bulgarian Macedonia) are reported to not identify themselves with their regional term "Macedonians" (Macedonian Bulgarians), so as not to be confused with the ethnic Macedonians.[254] According to other sources the traditional use of the term "Macedonians" in Bulgaria as a regional designation continues.[259][260]

Macedo-Romanians (Aromanians) are often called "Machedoni" by Romanians, as opposed to the citizens of Macedonia, who are called "Macedoneni".

The Greek Macedonians demonstrate a strong regional identity and identify themselves as plain Macedonians, who live in plain Macedonia, speaking a Macedonian dialect of modern Greek.

As you can understand this is at the same time a relativelly new issue in the course of history since ancient times but also one that has been there for along time in the last 100 year or so, and especially amplified post WWII.

In addition concerns over territorial claims come from certain part s of FYROM organizations such as ANSOM and the claim to "greater Macedonia" or "United Macedonia"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Macedonia

The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...Greece does not aspire to any of this, Greece is not the aggressor in this whole issue here.

In any case, positive steps are being made and I hope for a fast resolution in the near future.

CHeers!

[Gilrandir]

Your false narrative here consists of claiming that Greece is the apparent aggressor of this whole issue when in fact Greece is the defender.


I would be vey much obliged if you quoted any post of mine containing "aggressor" referring to Greece.

What I claim is: there is a land called Macedonia. I don't see any sensible reason why the country located on this land can't be called Macedonia or why the citizens of this country can't be called Macedoneans. If someone outside this country doesn't like it - well, sue them, gather demonstrations denouncing them - they will do whatever they like because they live there NOW.
Unless you want to take that land back into the laps of Mother Greece.



If that was the case then, FYROM would not have made any Amendments to its constitution or take steps to change its Flag and drop Claims to ancient Macedon. It has taken these steps because it was pointed out that it was in the wrong and now it is making amense.

This is actually an amendment to the constitution which came later than the initial declaration of 1991.


You said THERE ARE territorial claims (especially to Italy) in the constitution NOW. Since there are no claims NOW, there is no sense talking about any CURRENT claims FYROM has.


Now as far as the people of Greece which has issues with all this it all stems form the following.

Present day citizens of FYROM have no relation to the Ancient Greek people of Macedon.

On the other hand there are 2.5 million Greeks of today that have a relation to the Ancient Greeks of Macedon, live in the Province of Macedonia in Greece and call themselves Macedonians... Just as I call myself Athenian. We are still Greeks.

I don't know if you can understand this but even today when Greeks meet with one another one fo the first questions we will ask is from which part of Greece are you? "Ahh you are Spartan" or "Ahh you are Macedonian", or "Ahh you are Pontian" or "Ahh you are Cretean, Lemnoan, Thessalian, Epirotic etc" is quite common.

Greeks even today identify with their region. Athenians, Corinthians, Macedonians, Spartans etc.


So regional identity is the first thing you inquire about from your fellow countryman? Is it THAT important to you? Then this city state mentality persists till nowadays.



And the Macedonians are concerned when a neighboring country calls itself the same as them without being them...


We are going around in circles. Do you want me to repeat all that stuff about New Zealand, Luxemburg, California, New Mexico....



In addition concerns over territorial claims come from certain part s of FYROM organizations such as ANSOM and the claim to "greater Macedonia" or "United Macedonia"...


:laugh4:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea
The nationalist Golden Dawn party, which has had a recent surge in electoral support, supports the Megali Idea.




The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...


:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: This is the best argument ever. It reminds me of some of my students who when asked some question try to read what is written in their notebooks and when I call their attention to the mistakes they say: "But it is written that way in here".

[Suraknar]

I would be vey much obliged if you quoted any post of mine containing "aggressor" referring to Greece.

What I claim is: there is a land called Macedonia. I don't see any sensible reason why the country located on this land can't be called Macedonia or why the citizens of this country can't be called Macedoneans. If someone outside this country doesn't like it - well, sue them, gather demonstrations denouncing them - they will do whatever they like because they live there NOW.
Unless you want to take that land back into the laps of Mother Greece.

Normally there would not be a problem to this, unless there is another people who already have claim and use that name. And there is. This is the crux of the issue here.

The name was already taken, how can you go and take it for yourself without verifying?

This is why there is a "Dispute" in the first place.


You said THERE ARE territorial claims (especially to Italy) in the constitution NOW. Since there are no claims NOW, there is no sense talking about any CURRENT claims FYROM has.

You yourself posted an article which explains what elements remain in Dispute from the Greek perspective. Thes eare nto my claims, I follow the Articles which expose the political disagreement.

Now as for Italy, this is in relation to the "Great Macedonia" or "United Macodonia", some would claim that it went all the way present day Italy since that is how far Ancient Macedonia expanded including Illyria etc.

While the claim is not explicitly expressed in the Constitution per se, the constitution, and according to the article you posted, contains elements which favor or support claims by organizations who would like to work towards claiming all that territory.


So regional identity is the first thing you inquire about from your fellow countryman? Is it THAT important to you? Then this city state mentality persists till nowadays.

No it is not that important to me in the sense that it will not change how a relationship with another person will go or will not be basis for any sort of judgement. But I expressed this to explain... a behavioral reality which still exists in Greece.

I am sure this behavior also exists in other countries. In the States as much as in Ukraine etc. Are you a New Yorker or a Texan? From Alabama or from California? People associate to regions and local traditions or ways of thinking. Expressing that helps in better understanding or one another towards certain issues.

In Greece this goes back thousands of years.

But also I express this to show you tahtthere ra many people who still do identify as Macedonian, and they are not happy about their identity being usurped by another country.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea
The nationalist Golden Dawn party, which has had a recent surge in electoral support, supports the Megali Idea.

Yes this is what extremists support, they are not the majority of the population and mainstream Greeks do not have such aspirations. History is what it is we accept and move forward.

Unless the other tries to cause trouble to us. Like Turkey now seemingly seeking a War. If that happens you can bet that Greeks will push to retake what was traditionally Greek, including Constantinople and much of Coastal present day Turkey.

Greece will not draw first blood or initiate a war, but you can bet that it will finish it.



:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: This is the best argument ever. It reminds me of some of my students who when asked some question try to read what is written in their notebooks and when I call their attention to the mistakes they say: "But it is written that way in here".

You misunderstand again. I am simply pointing to a fact. And not denying anything. You are arguing with me as if I am the main instigator here and I am not. I given you my reasons according to my thinking and feelings on the issue. I am not expecting your approval.

Cheers!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

There's a parody song out there waiting to be written, focusing upon 'the very model of a modern Macedonian.'

[Gilrandir]

Normally there would not be a problem to this, unless there is another people who already have claim and use that name. And there is. This is the crux of the issue here.

The name was already taken, how can you go and take it for yourself without verifying?

This is why there is a "Dispute" in the first place.


I have already given plethora of examples when "the already taken" names are used again. Normally, it doesn't cause such problems.





Now as for Italy, this is in relation to the "Great Macedonia" or "United Macodonia", some would claim that it went all the way present day Italy since that is how far Ancient Macedonia expanded including Illyria etc.

While the claim is not explicitly expressed in the Constitution per se, the constitution, and according to the article you posted, contains elements which favor or support claims by organizations who would like to work towards claiming all that territory.


This is your reading of the Constitution in question. It doesn't mean that this is what others (including those who wrote it) see in it. Moreover, I'm sure that such statements of support for "compatriots without" can be found in other constitutions.



Yes this is what extremists support, they are not the majority of the population and mainstream Greeks do not have such aspirations.


I believe the same can be said of those who Greeks don't identify as Macedoneans. Only extremists speak of territorial claims. If the Greek extremists don't bother you, why should those across your northern border do?



Unless the other tries to cause trouble to us. Like Turkey now seemingly seeking a War. If that happens you can bet that Greeks will push to retake what was traditionally Greek, including Constantinople and much of Coastal present day Turkey.

Greece will not draw first blood or initiate a war, but you can bet that it will finish it.


Now it sounds too much warlike. First "Drang nach Norden", now "Drang nach Osten". Are you sure that only extremists in Greece speak of territorial claims?