New unit - Naginata cavalry!!

[Hitodama]

That's look like my kind of cavalry! http://www.totalwar.com/community/newunits8.htm

I think that the present cav is too weak against infantry. This unit seems to be the answer.

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[Geisha]

I know I am going to love massive cavalry charges!!

[solypsist]

great, but unless it's a replacement for the Heavy Cav in Warlords campaign, it looks a little redundant.

[guyvii]

I am guessing this is the unit you send in when you want to kill units not just fight and chase them away. A Naginata unit can hold units in place. I am guessing the Naginata Cav can kill these units to make way for your spearhead. I do not see heavy cav a killers of units, I see them as able to take hits and not die so fast in melees.
My guess.

* Quote Originally posted by solypsist:
* great, but unless it's a replacement *for the Heavy Cav in Warlords campaign, it *looks a little redundant.[/QUOTE]

[Hosakawa Tito]

As long as they are more effective than the present heavy cav. sounds good to me.
Tito

[Anssi Hakkinen]

A doublepost was deleted.

You're right, Solypsist-sama, they seem to be too much like HC to have much "k00l new unit" value... But maybe they'll make themselves useful. This could finally be the cavalry unit one dares to send against effective HtH troops, such as WMs or even spearmen... What worries me is that they have less armor than HC, which means great casualties (the bane of cavalry), and they'll also be slower than HC (which makes them the slowest cavalry unit), so no fancy flanking with this unit...

Or what the heck, when I get the expansion, I'll just throw them against whatever unit I can find and see what they can do. That's the spirit! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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[Geisha]

I think that they do differ enough from heavy cavalry to be considered a "k00l new unit" (lol!), you will be able to employ different strategies with cavalry you haven't been able to do before.

Assuming what the short paragraph says is true, you will be able to "overcome even highly skilled and heavily armoured opponents" - presumably naginata or warrior monks. Therefore you would be able to charge this unit head on, getting a large charge bonus, and have a chance of winning 1 on 1.

I think what this is allowing is big cavalry charges into groups of highly skilled infantry, something not available before.

[EATENG]

what i can't understand is the logic behind this unit being less well armored than HC and at the same time being slower!? me no get it. ohwell, i'll be looking forward to some cool calvary charges.

[Tachikaze]

I think the designers saw that we were not using any cavalry (successfully) as shock troops, so they made a unit more geared for it. Sort of like mounted Warrior Monks (and they will die just as fast).

We'll see how it works.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[BakaGaijin]

Yummy. Throw your silly pointed sticks at me, will you? MWAHAHAA! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

This unit sounds to me alot like it's the mounted equivalent of Nodachi, only they'll likely have even greater effectiveness. Keep around just one low-honour unit of these to charge head on at the enemy's line and break a hole in it. Then HC and Yari Cav can clean up. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif If they're less heavily armoured than YC, though, they'd better be cheap, 'cause they'd drop like flies in a shock role without good armour.

[Shiro]

These guys are hard to figure out. We may just have to wait (sigh...) for the expansion to come out to figure out how to use this guys effectively!


[This message has been edited by Shiro (edited 02-20-2001).]

[Tenchimuyo]

I love those naginatas! But with them on horses, I don't know if this is a good isea.

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A great warrior never reveal his true skills....

[Dark Phoenix]

I dont think that they are Naginatas or horses. From what I read is that they are just using a a Naginata as the weapon and do not have heavy armour. I read over at the offical site forum that they used to be able to swing it 360 degrees and take the horses head off.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

[Doragon_Ajidrik]

If their morale is the same as the ND and WM, also their attack value is the same then i wouldnt mind using it. But if thier attack value is the same as a foot nag then forget it. Nd and Wm on a horse, now thats something!

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[Contubernalis]

Quote Originally posted by Dark Phoenix:
I read over at the offical site forum that they used to be able to swing it 360 degrees and take the horses head off.

[/QUOTE]

Their own horse's head or someone else's horse?! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
I know that the mtd. archers in the days of yore, lore and gore only had a limited arc of fire.

I can't wait to charge these boys into some ashis. Irresistible force, meet routable object...

[leoknite]

my comp need to get fixed before the expansion o lord i hope it will be!
I was thinking EA should host a contest where we one lucky winner will get to design a unit type of their choice, but that naginata on horse looks so cool, ooooo baby I cant wait!

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[Geisha]

I think they are more like no-dacho on horses... not like naginata at all. They are not tough, but good fighters.

They are slow because they are carrying a heavy weapon.

[Tenchimuyo]

Since they can take their enemy's horse's heads off with that weapon, then does that make them a foe for the calvaries?

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A great warrior never reveal his true skills....

[lanza27]

Well first of all these naginata cavalry are described as an inferior version of H.Cav. of course inferior is a bit strong of a word.

However, The original H.Cav carry a naginata as it is. At least thats what the descriptio of that unit says. So how do these units differ? I think it is less armor and more offensive capability instead of being so damn defensive.

So its just a less armored more offensive H.Cav. They are not No-Dachi on Horseback as the No-Dachi sword would be awkward to swing on a horse back since it is a 2 handed weapon.

I want to know why all the Mongol/Korean units we have heard about seem to be alittle less powerful that any japanese counter-part. What is it that gives the Mongol army a balancing factor to deal with the fact that all their units a re a little behind the japanese units?

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[Geisha]

I didn't mean they had No-Dachi swords, i meant that when you compared them to infantry units, they are more like the no-dachi than the naginata.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

The original HC do not have naginatas, they only have tachi swords (which are actually a lot like katanas, except that they're carried edge down). So: more offensive power but less defensive power. Naginata Cavalry (NC) are ND on horses, while the ordinary HC are Naginata on horses. (This is confusing...) I'm not sure how the NC being slower fits the equation, but we'll see.

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[lanza27]

this is confusing since No-Dachi and Naginata are named for the weapon they carry. saying its like a no-dachi but without carrting a no-dachi can obviously cause us to scratch our heads.



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[Puzz3D]

Naginata have a base attack = 0, defense = 6.
HeavyCav have a base attack = 2, defense = 6.
No-dachi have a base attack = 5, defense =-2.

So there is plenty of room for the naginata cav to fall between the naginata and no-dachi. I'd expect them to be a 4/3 and cost around 500 koku. That would make them equal overall to a warrior monk which is a 5/2.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[BanzaiZAP]

Another possible detail to confuse the mix:
Perhaps this is a balancing unit? Many people have expressed hope that for the Campaign mode, you are restricted to what unit types you can use. So this could be the mongol cavalry, as opposed to the Nipponese cavalry?

So you have on one side:
Korean Guardsmen
Korean Spearmen
Korean Skirmishers
Thunder Bombers
Naginata Cavalry

and on the other:
Ashigaru X-bows
Original Shogun units, but NOT gunpowder weapons (to preserve timeline)
Kensai
Battlefield Ninja

Or has anyone seen word about an actual Mongol Cavalry?

In Multiplayer, you could choose any unit, so certain cavalry may or may not ever getr used. Sound like possibilities? Or at least giving us more reason to use some of these new units? Also, as yet we don't know what these units will COST. After all, if the NC cost more than a Yari Cav, how badly do we really want them? (No, Magyar, you don't need to answer THAT one!) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

-- B)

[This message has been edited by BanzaiZAP (edited 02-22-2001).]

[BakaGaijin]

Ah, BazaiZAP-san... You seem to have made the mistake many others have. Naginata Cavalry cannot by any means be Mongol units. The reason is, simply enough, that the Mongols just didn't use Naginata. Period. The Japanese, however, did. The Mongol Cavalry renders and descriptions will be soon forthcoming, I'm sure. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[solypsist]

it would see mthey're holding the "best" for last in keeping the Mongol cav quiet.

[BanzaiZAP]

We'll just have to wait and see! I certainly don't mind more units, but I would have thought that "Stronger attack/weaker armor" made for a good description of Mongols. But then I thought about the lack of bows, and that the Mongol Cavalry should probably be the fastest cavalry, not the slowest, so I bow to superior theorizing.

-- B)

[Tenchimuyo]

All these units are so confusing, I can't wait anymore for the expansion to come out. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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A great warrior never reveal his true skills....

[Sengoku]

If these units are intended as shock troops it seems a bit misleading to call them 'naginata'. Oh well, it will be interesting to see their effectiveness against warrior monks, unless fighting in forests.

[BakaGaijin]

Actually, it's not misleading at all, since "Naginata" refers to a weapon, not to any particular attributes.

[Shuko]

Quote Originally posted by Anssi Hakkinen:
The original HC do not have naginatas, they only have tachi swords (which are actually a lot like katanas, except that they're carried edge down). So: more offensive power but less defensive power. Naginata Cavalry (NC) are ND on horses, while the ordinary HC are Naginata on horses. (This is confusing...) I'm not sure how the NC being slower fits the equation, but we'll see.

[/QUOTE]

Just to try and clarify things : the mounted samurai carried their tachi slung edge downwards from his belt, plus numerous shorter swords and daggers. The tachi is slung by a chains or cords and thus able to be drawn on horseback as the scabbard could be moved across the body away from the horses head.The butt or hilt of the tachis had a small hole so that a cord could be attached to it and the samurai's wrist in case it was dropped during a hit in battle.

The tachi evolved over the centuries and its shape changed, the blade was usually over 70 cm long. "No Tachi" ( or "seoi tachi")are moor swords that have very long blades, they were made in the 14th century and were carried on a samurai's back.

I would actually prefer to have no dachi on horesback as the naginata is an awkward weapon to use on the ground, yet alone on a horse. The naginata is a polearm weapon !

[Sengoku]

Bakagaijin,

This I am aware of, but through many months of play I have come to categorize the units by what they can be best used for. I feel many people will relate 'naginata' with purely defensive qualities, whatever weapon they use. Or perhaps not.

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[BakaGaijin]

Not to be rude, but that's your problem, then. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Also, I don't think that the Naginata is very difficult to wield while on foot. It's just a big pole, and the problems involved in swinging it around are solved by practice and good technique. Using one while mounted is another problem, but I think that perhaps the idea is that the Naginata-armed cavarly charge the lines of enemy infantry and use their long reach to lop off the heads of the enemy more effectively than the HC, who would have to get in closer in order to attack an infantryman effectively.

[Shuko]

BakaGaijin

please tell me your reasons and not "I don't think etc", I am always willing to learn about naginatas and other weapons.

Do you know how long the naginatas were and how long the HC spears (yari) were in the early sixteenth century in Japan ?

[This message has been edited by Shuko (edited 07-13-2001).]

[HATAMOTOKILL]

Lord Ted the master horseman will sort it out.one of the best with cav........

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