Fighting/charging in hold formation/rank bonus

[Michael the Great]

The units that get the rank bonus default to hold formation.
My quesiton is,what am I supposed to do for when I have cav in front of me,wait for them to attack or charge.
I mean,should I charge my spears/pikes to fight on hold formation,or should I put them on enegage at will so they get their charge,btw,do they get their charge bonus while on hold formation or do they charge better when on engaged than on hold formation??
So,what should I do if the enemy tries to flank my spears,engage them while on hold formation,is it good to engage a unit while on hold formation,so should I put them on engage(but they will lose their rank bonus),also,I think spears/pikes get a bigger charge when in multiple rank formation,but how SHOULD I charge on hold formaiton...?
I'm confused... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Exile]

I usually dont charge my spear units against tough units, they dont do enough damage. Their purpose in my formation is to hold up the enemy unit until I can get a unit with more punch, like my clavary or sword unit, around to the enemy's flank or rear.

Be patient - but dont let the enemy calvary flank your formation and dont charge your units out unsupported, they will get surrounded and beat up.

I dont think the 'hold formation' option affects the charge bonus, as long as you double click.

[Husar]

I´m usually outnumbered by the enemy and because of that I Always attack them to not give them a chance to gain an advantage.
But I´m also not really sure if that´s right, perhaps someone else can tell?

[Kraxis]

Well, all spears get the chargebonus when charging no matter the setup (Hold or Engage), I saw some Italian Infantry mercs cleave some rebel Peasants in a charge. That looked great, Peasants falling all along the line of the front.

But the rankbonus only works if there are guys directly behind the front guy, thus only short charges should be used. And usually I put the spears in Engage for charges.
Remember that the rankbonus adds 1 to melee and 2 to charge giving a total of 3 in the charge if you can hold the unit together, then there is the 5 the units itself has in the charge... so now we are talking, then add another 1 to charge cavalry, and we end at 9 against cav if you have them in Engage and charge in good order.

Pikemen's rankbonus is simply great, but hard to use as they themselves suck. Try the Swiss variant and they will trample low defense units.

[LadyAnn]

Here is an advice from a perenial newbie (yes, I always manage to find new ways to lose game):

1. It is in my noble opinion (oops, typo, should be noobly), one should always let spears charge, not just sit and hold. Spears has high charge bonus (+5 for most spears) and very low melee. You will automatically go to melee after a few second anyways. So, a few dead enemies will help you hold the line longer.

2. Don't charge from afar. Let enemy walk up to you and then charge. If they already come that close, they will attack anyways. So better get use of those high charge bonus.

3. After the charge and now you are in melee, cancel the charge and put the spears in hold formation, hold ground. [EDIT: reason for this is to not let your spears chasing enemies and hold the enemy for your other units to come and help. Otherwise, your spears will try to chase the enemy and get them tired or in bad situation].

4. Annie doesn't know if charging in hold formation or charging in melee is the best. Annie just know charge Charging on someone else credit card is even better

5. It is even a bigger sin not to charge the credit cards of knights in shining armors. When knights arrived to a date, I first charge in formation then put the spears in engage at will. The charge usually thin down the knights to 2/3, the melee will finish them fast or trap them for a long time.

6. Spears in woods is better if set in melee. Spears in woods is usually a bad idea, but if you hide some to ambush cav, it could be deadly for cav.

So, charge first, talk later.

Annie

[longjohn2]

Yes Kravis is right, they get the rank bonus whether in hold formation or not.
Engage at will is usually better for offensive operations, as being in hold formation increase defence, but reduces attack.
The real key to attacking with spear and pike units is to keep them formed up nicely. Do this and they pack a nasty punch. Mainly this means making sure they're formed up nicely pointing in the direction they want to go, before you issue the charge order. If you do need to change direction, I advise turning them to face the correct way, letting them sort themselves out, then clicking to attack.

[Exile]

oho the official word http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif and I have learned something new about the game - that the engage/hold commands actually affect melee/defense..juicy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Syterion]

I find with spears and pikes to keep them in hold formation, since that makes it so you can attack with the units bhind the front line. With cav I have hold wedge formation for a few seconds to create a hole to exploit, and then engage at will.

[Michael the Great]

Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ Jan. 13 2003,16:34)]Yes Kravis is right, they get the rank bonus whether in hold formation or not.
Engage at will is usually better for offensive operations, as being in hold formation increase defence, but reduces attack.
The real key to attacking with spear and pike units is to keep them formed up nicely. Do this and they pack a nasty punch. Mainly this means making sure they're formed up nicely pointing in the direction they want to go, before you issue the charge order. If you do need to change direction, I advise turning them to face the correct way, letting them sort themselves out, then clicking to attack.
LongJohn,once you sayed that the rank bonus does apply while in the proper formation,and not necessary on HOLD FoRmaTION,is that right?
But spear units have low attack values,so is it recommended for them to engage the enemy and fight while on hold formation???
Because if I put them on engage they will,once the melee starts,they have already breaken their formation,and will get beaten quite easily by superior melee fighting(sword) units.
So,what 2 do?

[Puzz3D]

Michael,

Even in engage spears and pikes try to line up behind one another and maintain the rank bonus. My rule of thumb is, if I can beat the unit I'm fighting, I use engage (accelerated casualty rate). If I can't beat the unit, I use hold (decelerated casualtiy rate). I have reservations about switching from engage to hold during a melee because any men who turn their backs on the enemy to march back into position can be easily cut down. Also, during the time they would be in engage they will suffer accelerated casualties and hasten their own demize.

Certainly, regardless of formation, you might as well charge and get the bonus in a one-on-one situation. However, if your spear unit is one of several forming a wall of spears, you may open gaps, expose flanks and loose flank morale support on some units if the spear units move forward individually. Usually, I don't charge with the spear wall and instead use the time to maneuver more offensive units like swords and cav into attacking positions.

[Michael the Great]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Jan. 15 2003,13:30)]Michael,

Certainly, regardless of formation, you might as well charge and get the bonus in a one-on-one situation.
Puzz,what's the spear unit u use the most(and think it's the best price/quality)?
Oh,and why do some ppl think that hold formation is for wedge? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
I've seen a few put wedge on hold formation,what do u say about that? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Puzz3D]

Playing the French in multiplayer, I use the Order Foot as the spear unit.

I think wedge does have some ability to break up a spear/pike formation, but I rarely use it out of fear of loosing men too quickly. Combining wedge and hold seems counter productive to me since wedge shifts 3 point from defend to melee, and hold shifts 2 points from melee to defend. There may be situations where you want to have only the first few men in your unit fighting and wedge in hold does that, but it seems to me that the sides of the wedge are then exposed and the men subject to flank attacks.

I find that cavalry doesn't charge as well in wedge as it does in a wide 20 x 2 deep line. I think this is because most of the cav in a wedge loose their forward momentum before they engage any enemies.

[Lord Of Storms]

Spear and Pikemen get rank bonuses to combat. both will apply only if the spear/pike unit is in orderly formation. Unit formation can break due to a powerful attack that breaks through the ranks or by turning suddenly . By holding formation your spear/pike units get a bonus , +1 bonus to attack per 2 ranks/+1 bonus to defense per rank/ and a +1 bonus to charge per rank . It is not always easy to hold formation during a hectic melee.But the bonus will make it worth the effort

[Michael the Great]

Ok,ok so that's +1 charge per rank...what's the maximum number of ranks that can give you this charge bonus??
Oh,so that means,the 7 charge Pikemen have +1 per rank....isn't it a max of five ranks?

[Acronym]

Well, in RTW they better give a bonus to the greeks for holding formation, since hoplite armies were made for that.

[Lord Of Storms]

I believe it is spearmen can have up to 2 ranks effective in combat while pikemen can have 4 . these rank bonuses only improve your troops fighting ability , not the number of units that can engage an enemy .

[Efrem Da King]

Thats bad, all ranks that can should be able to fight http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif .

[Dijeeh]

I don't *ever* use hold formations.

My spearmen are like bread and water to me, i don't care how many of them will die, i charge my spearmen into everything that comes close enough to die.

Not always the best tactic, but i would rather charge them than have them hold position under a sky raining arrows from the archers on the hill.

[Cooperman]

Maybe I'll have to try this out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I've never tried charging with spear units, usually I use them to maneuvuer the enemy into engaging them head on so I can charge his flanks with good melee infantry and cavalry.

[Lord Of Storms]

Holding position and holding formaton are different commands to hold position would be bad if set before enemy archers, now to hold a formation during melee adds the attack bonus, so instead of "throwing" your spearman at anything that comes try putting them in a wedge and attack while holding formation I think you will notice a difference