Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

[Brennus]

Hello Levan and Khevsur sorry for the lack of recent contact regarding the Caucasian units.

Thank you for your offer to assist us


Hello Brennus,

Sorry for the delay. We will gladly share our information.

First of all, the naming is incorrect. The word "warriors" is misspelled, it should be Meomrebi (or Meomarni) instead of Mehomni.
The word "Kartvelian" is misused, it is a term to describe Georgian language group or peoples. "Georgian" would be "Kartveli". So, the correct name would be Kartveli Meomrebi (Kartlian Warriors).

Secondly, archaeological materials and historical descriptions indicate that Kartlian warriors should be represented as heavily equipped spearmen.

https://i.postimg.cc/F1tvdmWS/www-Capture.png
https://i.postimg.cc/nzQcCsdT/48390254-1143726839124802-5444868197352210432-n-1.png


Helmets
You should remove the leather and horny helmets. They aren't authentic. There is a record of Chalybes wearing helmets with horns though.
Chalcidian helmets found in Georgia

https://i.postimg.cc/GhgVpxcb/48391071-128537934729580-1020275365269995520-n-1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/gJB8hjrL/48392105-308833896393814-5637747486329143296-n-1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/0QrJ9vZk/48394810-1766992586740782-5208940013080805376-n-1.png

You can also use eastern conical helmets. They are depicted on a pitcher found near Mtskheta, IV-II century.
https://i.postimg.cc/c4jj5yvP/48372259-1170621879767791-599031763221610496-n-1.png
Probably like these:
https://i.postimg.cc/gcRjSdt6/48275461-1072887096228506-308681150694424576-n-1.jpg


Armor
The unit should be equipped with scale armor. You could also use leather armor according to Strabo.

https://i.postimg.cc/9f2gSs9p/ccc-Capture.png
https://i.postimg.cc/v89sJwxR/qq-Capture.png
http://amigo.ge/saunjegallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_berulava-nax15.JPG


Greaves
Three pairs of greaves have been found in Georgia, one of them even had hip/thigh guarding plates.
https://i.postimg.cc/CxsCtXJw/48414256-264459154236378-9006513936874340352-n-1.jpg


Shields
Current flat shields, with some stripes, aren't reasonable.
The horn below was found in Eastern Georgia (Kartli), so Kartlians are the ones who should have these shields.

https://amigo.ge/saunjegallery/albums/userpics/10001/berulava-nax20.JPG

Round shields, can be used as well but they should be larger, curved and strengthened with metal plates.

https://i.postimg.cc/26W8VR1W/48383146-585632948517624-1846288994669690880-n-1.png
http://amigo.ge/saunjegallery/albums/userpics/10001/berulava-nax13.JPG

On the shields, you could draw Borjgali(symbol of the sun and eternity), bull, lion.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Borjgala.svg/800px-Borjgala.svg.png
https://i.postimg.cc/L8dBx7g8/48268929-220585315521457-2184418214966984704-n-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/85qbfPWN/48383978-2399135483461359-327379883523047424-n-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/2y62fZCj/48277320-311878236337400-6365365472266813440-n-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/HxjyY48N/48379156-1925965274123472-3226846523333541888-n-1.jpg


Weapons
Spears should be the primary melee weapon
These are the types of spears found in Kartli, relevant to the period.
https://i.postimg.cc/cJt7FCK8/48270538-217023652533365-6528899212510232576-n-1.png
There is numerous evidence of both swords and axes. I think you should use swords as a secondary weapon but unit models should also have hatchets for historical representation. Bellow are the findings appropriate for Kartli.

https://i.postimg.cc/V6ppDwyk/48355346-1098242620381791-3064116796672966656-n-1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/Bb3cq7HC/48272828-746212442443949-7660138704299622400-n-1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/rmktW0sV/48358882-2170131056583269-5227584676566138880-n-1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/26kSr43Z/48361273-300935293867252-8787712677725077504-n-1.png


https://i.postimg.cc/1RwXZ5WP/48370967-1956111658024380-8765807077500125184-n-1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/x1cSn60H/48421613-365888290644214-4295539724946243584-n-1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/zG94552Z/48417216-914002682141229-3909772819050790912-n-1.png


Skins
Kartvelian units should have Caucasian skins, in the game they could probably be represented by South European. Those Middle Eastern skins are inappropriate.

Khevsurs drawings could be used as samples, though they are old(shields should be larger).

https://i.postimg.cc/B61yXvbB/48362930-453620218501509-99833787491287040-n-1.png
https://scontent.ftbs4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/48391791_342819696307456_3997069038659305472_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent.ftbs4-1.fna&oh=7b31289ecdd39973dc82ccf9c7b3a569&oe=5C96B171


The team has decided that this thread is the fastest way to re-consider the units. I hope that is ok with you two?

We would also like to know if you would be interested in helping develop Caucasus specific character traits?

Sarkiss and Arjos were responsible for most of our Caucasian units, and they will be your primary points of contact. wermez has also expressed an interest in re-working some aspects of the Caucasian units.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Simply ping me via Brennus

[wermez]

21959

[Levan]

Hello everyone, we are willing to assist with anything related to Kartvelians(Kartlians, Colchians, Native Pontians). We have profound information on the game period to create several, to a great extent historical, units. If you reconsider, we could even bring into being a whole new faction. I think it's a shame that the first Georgian kingdom(Kartli) is missing in this mod when it played an important role throughout the period and we have more than enough information to historically represent it.

[Lusitanio]

Hello everyone, we are willing to assist with anything related to Kartvelians(Kartlians, Colchians, Native Pontians). We have profound information on the game period to create several, to a great extent historical, units. If you reconsider, we could even bring into being a whole new faction. I think it's a shame that the first Georgian kingdom(Kartli) is missing in this mod when it played an important role throughout the period and we have more than enough information to historically represent it.

Due to the lack of faction slots I don't think the team will create a Kartli faction. But it would be great if they could be a mini faction represented in game :)

[Khevsur]

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[Zarrr]

hello.

Kartlians (Iberians ) were Heavy spearmens and shock cavalry, also Skirmisher Cavalry. They had war chariots.

Egrisians (Colchis) were heavy Hoplite , also spearmens and axemans .

Chans ( Chalybes, Tibareni, Macrones and other south west Kartvelian tribes) were spearmens and skrimshers.

Svans( Misimians ) Were Archers , with Poisoned arrows.

Heniochi,also Apsilae Lived in North West Georgia , They were light warriors ( They were not adyghe and Circassian peoples )

Could you show us your sources related to all your suggestions? We need historical and archeological sources for every your proposition.

Bear in mind that free slots for units are very limited(in M2TW is units limit that is 500, and we are very close to the limit). Also we changed one unit, Armenian lancers are now Caucasian lancers, name and description of this unit was changed.

[Khevsur]

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[Zarrr]

deleted Phazaghashska , make Egrisian light Skrimsher axeman , with two javelins , axe and round leather covered shields . like iberian light warrior



Why do you want to delete Phæzæghashkha?

[Khevsur]

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[Zarrr]

Phæzæghashkha Is Adyghe name, is not georgians name.


It is true, but they are proto-Circassians not proto-Georgians.

This unit represent proto-Circassians and represent peoples from northern mountainside of Caucasus. Phæzæghashkha is based mostly on findings from princely burial in Mezmay and stuff from Kolchis.

http://www.academia.edu/3016389/_2012_Princely_Burial_of_the_Hellenistic_Period_in_the_Mezmay_Burial-Ground_North-Western_Caucasus_



kartlian (iberian) shock and skrimsher cavalry


Iberian/Kartlian shock cavalry actually is in game.

[Khevsur]

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[Zarrr]

proto Circassians not live in Colchis In the Hellenistic era , not give them a colchian weapons - shields from gomi cup and hoplon shields from Georgia

These rectangular shields which are depicted on Gomi cup are also known from various depictions from Northern Pontic territories, Crimea etc.

http://nomadic.org.uk/masterpieces-of-ancient-eurasian-art/Rhyton-with-battle-scenes

https://i.imgur.com/dZ3gK0H.png

[Khevsur]

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[Zarrr]

Egrisians ( Colchians )

Egrisians are Hoplite Spearmens and light skrimsher-axeman. Phazaghashska chalcidean helmets ( Not Thracian helmets ) , Rectangle and hoplon shields Give Egrisians , Deleted your leather helmets ( not real ) . Remove hills from chalcidean helmets :)


Why do you think that leather helmets were not real? There are sources which describe helmets from organic materials used in Caucasus region.

"The Albanians use javelins and bows; and they wear breastplates and large oblong shields, and helmets made of the skins of wild animals, similar to those worn by the Iberians."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/11D*.html

[Khevsur]

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[Zarrr]

Native Names

Iberians Spearmens - Kartlelta Shubosanni
Iberians Warriors - Kartlelta Meomarni ( for Swordsmen Version )

Colchians Spearmens - Egrisali Borzalamephi
Colchians Skrimshers ( Phazaghashska ) - Egrisali Khesh-borzalamephi
Chalibeans Spearmens - Chani Borzalamephi



These names looks modern, in mod all units have names from ancient languages or their reconstructions.

[Lusitanio]

Just to remember an older post from you with the same units (I think?).
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?686893-Caucase-Iberian-(-Kartli-)-and-Colchian-(Egrisi)-units

[Khevsur]

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[Lusitanio]

I learned a lot after that :)

Good :yes:

[Zarrr]

No. this is old Georgian dialect .

for example:

Modern Georgian - Kartleli Shubosnebi . Old Georgian - Kartlelta shubosanni
Modern Georgian - Egriseli Shubosnebi . Old Georgian ( Egrisian Kartvelian Language ) - Egrisali Borzalamephi.

Im Georgian , I know more about Georgia , You know less about Georgia .

How old is this dialect? Languages in mod must be from hellenistic period(3rd - 1st century BC).

[Khevsur]

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[Khevsur]

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[Zarrr]

From what period/century is old Georgian which you use for unit names?

[Khevsur]

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[Zarrr]

http://a.radikal.ru/a26/1901/4e/b4c8118b4fc7.jpg (http://radikal.ru)


What is the dating of these horsemen depictions?



late Colchian Nobleman Armour and Weapon



https://a.radikal.ru/a15/1901/52/28bfb9146f71.png (https://radikal.ru)

https://c.radikal.ru/c33/1901/9b/279f538a16dct.jpg (https://radikal.ru/big/0y9td2ke4sm7y)

https://d.radikal.ru/d03/1901/91/3022a367b363.png (https://radikal.ru)

Armour looks really nice but is out of mod timeframe.

[Khevsur]

This is gaming plates. Parthian type cavalry. 2BC -1AD

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[Zarrr]

There are permanent manpower shortage in units making departament, also units slots are very limited. We can't promise anything.

[Khevsur]

I worked and drew for mod Europa Barbarorum 2. You do not create. Please pay attention

[Khevsur]

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[Zarrr]

Why did you removed all older images?

[Khevsur]

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