Rebellions ???

[Akka]

Doh, I'm having some extremely frustrating experiences on my game.
I'm Byzantine, started in Early and now in the 1270s. I have an extremely powerful empire, with an adequate army and a very solid social and economical base.

And the problem I had is that for the three past turns, I'm experiencing several revolts which I just can't explain...

There is lands that I have owned for now 50 to 200 years each.
It has been decades that they loyalty is capped at 200 %.
They all have competent leader, ALL with a loyalty of 9.
They all are quite developped tech-wise.
They all have between 1 to 3 of my own spies on them, to look for rebellious acts.
My leader has not moved from Constantinople for the past twenty years.
My navy rules the oceans.

And yet, I had 2500-men large rebellions on them.
No enemy spies (that I would have seen with my own), no drop in loyalty the previous turn, no sudden separation from the rest of the empire.
Just a revolt that suddendly happen.

I have nothing against the concept of revolt. I even accept that revolters have soldiers I can't build myself (like hallberdiers), even though I find it completely stupid.
But I HATE to have unexplained revolts, that starts in what is supposed to be the most loyal land imaginable. I especially hate to not know WHAT triggered the revolt and what I could do to prevent it.

Can someone explain me why they revolt, and how I could deal with it ?

[Knight of Nee]

yeah, i had the same problem with the english in around the same time period....all of a sudden there were mass rebellions over the place http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Gaius Julius]

I'm also playing the Biz., early.
I've also had trouble with rebellions.

IMHO, a few things to watch for:

- King's influence, piety, command, acumen. Also check if he has some bad, or strange vices.

- Governors- check loyalty, acumen, piety. Also check for bad vices.

- Generals- watch their loyalty.

- have priests/bishops present. Helps to curb religious rebellions.

- Provinces- watch tax rates, adjust accordingly.


These are a few things that should help you prevent revolts.

[Dark Angel]

If you have the money and they have good troops then move out all but a small garrison and move in emisaries to bribe them next year. Playing the byzantines I gained a good army of heavy cavalry from the mongols that way.
Just hope they dont assault your castle.

[Akka]

- King's influence, piety, command, acumen. Also check if he has some bad, or strange vices.

No.
9 influence.
9 dread (this only should quell the revolts :P)
No vice affecting the loyalty (alcoholic and killer instinct)
Steward and Great Builder (which IMPROVE the loyalty)...
He has been ruling the country for years, not moving from Constantinople and no problem.

Piety should not be a problem, as I have a very small zeal (under 30 % usually)

- Governors- check loyalty, acumen, piety. Also check for bad vices.

As I said, they ALL have 9 loyalty. No one under 3 acumen (usually 4). I don't give offices to generals with bad vices, so no bad vices either http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Though, they are often stewards and builders...

- Generals- watch their loyalty.

Same here. Never a general under 8 in loyalty, and the overwhelming majority has 9.

- have priests/bishops present. Helps to curb religious rebellions.

Well, it's not a rebellious religion : more than 90 % of the population is orthodox, and the zeal is under 30 %.

- Provinces- watch tax rates, adjust accordingly.

Mmh, they are blocked at 200 % loyalty since more than 40 years. The tax rate hasn't changed since this time.


Well, these revolts are REALLY ununderstandable...

[jas]

Quote[/b] (Akka @ Jan. 19 2003,15:12)]No vice affecting the loyalty (alcoholic and killer instinct)

Well, these revolts are REALLY ununderstandable...
Yay, we love our king the drunken murderer .. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Perhaps the AI is using a large fleet of spies on you? The border patrols don't always get them and they can only get one at a time anyhow. Apart from that everything seems fine. Probably the most likely explanation is that you are doing too well and the game has decided to mess you up a little. Do you own most of the map?

Bribing rebels is great, BTW. As the Italians I have eight units of longbows, a couple of billmen and several AUMs by the simple method of spreading my cash around. If money's no object I even "employ" (ahem) soldiers from the far side of the map: retreat the ones I want to keep from the ensuing battle and then pay the ransom to have them appear the next turn in one of my provinces. I think of it as a "transportation fee".

[sassbarman]

I'm just curious as to how big your garrisons are. I (not to sound cocky) never have rebellion problems, but I generally keep around 250-300 men in every province, even ones that I have controlled for a long time.

[Cazbol]

I have heard on more than one occasion that the game will throw revolts at you without any good reason once you've become so big that you're dominating the map. It also seemed that way in my recent game as the Danes.

This was supposed to give players the challenge they felt was missing in STW once they controlled half the map. The end-game was therefore to be more exciting and less about clearing up. In my view this isn't more exciting, it's frustrating, and it only increases the clearing up work.

[Cooperman]

LOL you got it easy if you got to the 1270's before your first major revolt. Look back at history and see how many revolts/civil wars the byzantines actually had. If anything there aren't enough revolts in the game.
And previously loyal generals/provinces should revolt for no other reason than personal gain stabbing their friends in the back in the process.

[ToranagaSama]

Rebellions are a Bug http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Have you checked the TOC under "Revolts"?

[Lord Aeon]

I find it odd that someone would be able to determine whether there are enemy spies in his province. Let me restate that: i am extremely curious as to how one would know that there are "no enemy spies" in one's province, as it just doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe it's not anything as mysterious as a "bug", or "AI cheating" or whatever... maybe it's just good use of agents by your opponents working in tandem with other game mechanics. Remember that all the surviving factions may or may not have one or more agents in your provinces at any one time. And just because you have a spy in your own province doesn't mean he's going to catch all enemy spies... especially if he has low valour. To say nothing about the valour level of enemy spies in your provinces...

Also, keep in mind that the further your king is away from a partiular province, the more likely it is that a rebellion may occur there. Keeping your governors in their provinces also helps guard against rebellions.

[Gaius Julius]

Just wondering, by chance did you hire mercenaries?
They have little, or no loyalty to your faction.
If there's enough of them, you'll run into revolts.

[andrewt]

Lord Aeron- Spies can catch a lot of spies and assassins. I put two in Naples in my game and they catch assassins almost every turn. When I had a few spies, I train them there and move them into enemy territory once they get enough valor. I haven't done that in a while and one spy has 4 valor and another 0. I'm guessing that the higher valor one discovers the assassin before the other so the other doesn't get any.

1-2 spies have a great chance of catching a spy per turn. Your enemy needs to produce spies at a much higher rate than you to get a province to revolt since he will be taking losses almost every turn.

Akka- I think it may be a bug or you are missing something that lowers loyalty.

[Sigurd]

Oh yeah, the never ending revolting issue. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Here is a story for you.
I am playing the English on normal, starting in the high period.
Everything works out for me. The French faction is decimated early in the game with the help of the HRE.
The Italians are on a rampage through Europe giving HRE a hard time and leaving many rebel nations for me to snap up. They are of course excommunicated and make a good target for us vultures sitting on the fence scouting for crippled pray.

(I am fast forwarding to the point of my story) It is late 14 hundreds. The Egyptians have been slain and I dominate the map. The reappeared French is sitting on their little island of Cyprus, the Sicilians on Malta, Byzantines on Rodhes and Italians on Crete.
I am moving in on the only faction left on the continent; the Papacy. I am beefing up my garrisons in every province (300+-400+) since I am expecting to get excommunicated after the first battles.
I extinguish the papacy and no rebellions appear. Guess I moved fast enough to nullify the excommunication. I then move in on the sorry remains of once mighty nations.
The Sicilians, Byzantines and the Italians go and still nothing. The only nation left is the French on Cyprus. I am relocating some of my troops to make a heavy blow on the French with multitudes of Billmen and Longbow men. Then it happens, I can’t believe my own eyes, every single province on the entire map revolts and I control them all but one (Cyprus).
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
It takes many minutes just to run trough all the scrolls. Needless to say I can’t fight them all so I auto fight them all. I loose about 80% of the map and while I run through the ransom scrolls the game crashes. Well the game was over for my part anyway, there was no way of reconquering the map since it was already 1440.

I am still contemplating on reloading the autosave to see if it happens again, but I think I’ll just start another game as a new faction. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Now that’s revolting for you…

[Tyrac]

Like another asked. What is your garrison size? I have no problems with revolts. I keep 200-400 man garrisons in a provence, 400 peasants only cost 148 to support. I have a border Fort in every provence. I keep a religious agent in the provence until it is 100%..and sometimes just leave it there..agent are 0 to support so I have no worries just letting them sit for the whole game. As the game gets later and I get larger I start building up my spy "garrisons" at first just in key areas, then eventually everywhere. In my current game I have not had a single man assinated and I have had only one revolt in a province where I took the above precautions..Portugual, which I have read on boards has a much higher revolt setting. So in Portugual I have a larger garrison and more spies. I am playing Spain, Expert, and it is 1310 and I have 1,321,000 florins in bank....but I spend WAY too much time doing each turn. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[USMCNJ]

1270 sucks.
I had the same problem, using england.
I thinks it's a bug in the game, cause i checked everything else. All my rpovinces were loyal, i controlled over 60 provinces, i had atleast 2 spies in all provinces, stage 2 castles or better, an f load of money and troops. In like 90 % provinces i had stage two curches, and around 1270 it all went mad, i had a revolt in like 60 provinces. and provinces loyalty went from 140 (avg) to 0(for all) which is imposible considering that i have churches which give 20 hapines points. I even used the map reveal cheat to see if enemy spies did this, non was found. I think it's just a bug in the game.

[Akka]

To give a better idea of the situation :



"A" is where my emperor sits. He did not move from here since more than twenty years.
"B" is where the first revolt happened.


Quote[/b] ]Perhaps the AI is using a large fleet of spies on you? The border patrols don't always get them and they can only get one at a time anyhow.

I have not seen ANY AI spy since the very start of the game (though a big bunch of assassins were caught). Moreover, I had three of my own spies in the province, so...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif


Quote[/b] ]Apart from that everything seems fine. Probably the most likely explanation is that you are doing too well and the game has decided to mess you up a little. Do you own most of the map?

If this is the case, I just hate this idea. I don't want to see the rules of the game changing just because I'm doing well. It kills the very idea of doing better...
Though, I don't have an overwhelming big empire, as I roleplay my game, and then stay more or less in the regions that were "naturals" to Byzantines (as you can see on the map).


Quote[/b] ]I'm just curious as to how big your garrisons are. I (not to sound cocky) never have rebellion problems, but I generally keep around 250-300 men in every province, even ones that I have controlled for a long time.

I have small garnisons (usually 100 or 200 Byz infantry), but if the loyalty is firmly at 200 %, I don't think it is a problem, is it ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
(I mean, if nothing has changed between the turn before the revolt and the turn of the revolt, how the loyalty could have a 220-250 % dive ?)


Quote[/b] ]I have heard on more than one occasion that the game will throw revolts at you without any good reason once you've become so big that you're dominating the map. It also seemed that way in my recent game as the Danes.


That's the most logical thing I can think about. It just sucks if it's the case http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif


Quote[/b] ]LOL you got it easy if you got to the 1270's before your first major revolt. Look back at history and see how many revolts/civil wars the byzantines actually had. If anything there aren't enough revolts in the game.


What is the link between the historical revolts and my question about "why did this particular region revolted in this particular setting ?" ?
And why should I give a f*ck about how I'm lucky because people in these times where not ?

And BTW, revolts happenned FOR A REASON, and that's precisely WHERE lies my question : WHAT is the reason ?


Quote[/b] ]I find it odd that someone would be able to determine whether there are enemy spies in his province. Let me restate that: i am extremely curious as to how one would know that there are "no enemy spies" in one's province, as it just doesn't make sense to me.


AFAIK, forts catch ennemy spies and assassins when they move from one province to another, and spies allow to see "hidden units" that are in the same province (assassins and other spies).
I had three spies, a fort and a guard tower in this province. It has a loyalty capped at 200 % since more than a century, and nothing bad happened this turn (no epidemy, no flood, etc.).
If someone had sent any spies to make the loyalty drop from 200 % to 0 % in a single turn (since the turn before, the loyalty was still at 200 %), I WOULD have seen at least one or two of them. Nothing.
Beside, in this game I saw not a single spy from the AI since the very start.
So I can be more or less certain that there was no spy in the area.


Quote[/b] ]Just wondering, by chance did you hire mercenaries?
They have little, or no loyalty to your faction.
If there's enough of them, you'll run into revolts.

No.
I never hire mercenary, and the only troops here were my super-loyal own soldiers.


Quote[/b] ]Akka- I think it may be a bug or you are missing something that lowers loyalty.

Well, that's precisely this "something" I'm trying to undestand http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

(though I really can't see anything but a plain random revolt to "challenge" up the game, or in other words a f*cking dumb idea that shot down the interest of the game)

[kataphraktoi]

Another cause of rebellion is one which I suspect people are unaware of - economic blockade.

It happened several times to me, provinces whose taxes have been kept delibrately very low all of a sudden develop a taste for rebellion. This blockade comes from enemy fleets blocking my passageways, the loss of communication from nearby support apparently increases the chance of rebellion so accessibility to a province is something to be aware of. isolation of provinces therefore must be continually checked.

Normally when I play the Byzantines rebellions aren't that common, only island provinces rebel because of some naval war waged against enemies, splendid isolation with a sizeable rebel force deterrs me from attacking them immediately since my best troops are tied to several fronts (pesky English&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Anyway.

[Lord Aeon]

Quote[/b] ]and spies allow to see "hidden units" that are in the same province (assassins and other spies).

Are we playing the same game?

[Akka]

Quote[/b] ]Another cause of rebellion is one which I suspect people are unaware of - economic blockade.

It happened several times to me, provinces whose taxes have been kept delibrately very low all of a sudden develop a taste for rebellion. This blockade comes from enemy fleets blocking my passageways, the loss of communication from nearby support apparently increases the chance of rebellion so accessibility to a province is something to be aware of. isolation of provinces therefore must be continually checked.

I thought about it, but I have dedicaced lots of time to have the complete control of the seas, and to eliminate every single ship that's not mine and build an unbroken line of ships along every coasts.

So it's not that either http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif