SP Byzantine campaign

[ShadesWolf]

SP gaming Guide

I have started a new group of articles on my web site, based on playing the SP campaign. I intend to examine all three era's Early, High and Late by faction.

I have started the process off by detailing the Byzantium campaigns from Start to finish.

Period - Early (complete)
Period - High (complete)
Period - LAte (To be completed)

Byzantine Early Campaign SP (http://www.shadesmtw.com/gaminginfo/spbyzanearlycamp.htm)

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BTW I have also put a new poll on my site.

The poll is the cnace for you the users to tell me what faction u want me to complete new, so please vote.

ShadesWolf medieval resource home (http://www.shadesmtw.com)

Thankyou

ShadesWolf.......

[Exile]

Very interesting read. I am motivated to try the Byz in the late era.

[[RDH] Spetz Natz]

Awesome stuff Shades

Now can anybody give me a good starting
strat for the Russian campaign?
Just started it, and it's hard as hell
But then again...I wanted a challenge after
easily conquering Europe with England on
"Normal" diff. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[chilliwilli]

Good job ShadeWolf you should put it in the links section of OOOO. I think you should do this for all the factions. Great job

Oh by the way the reason Byzantium lost to The Seljuks at Manziket was because they had no missle troops of their own, some of their troops deserted, and The imperial standard was misinterpreted by The Byzantines, with the sun glaring they interpreted it as the Emperor has fallen when it signaled a withdrawal. A mass rout took place (thanks to the help of the treacherous Andronicus Ducas.) and the Emperor was cut off from his troops and captured. They didn't attempt to gain back Anatolia because they had their own troubles. While The Emperor was being held the thrown was usurped by Michael Ducas(Andronicus' stepson) after news of The Emperors defeat reached Constantinople. Emperor Romanus was eventualy ransomed back after accpeting a favorable peace treaty, but upon his return he found Michael Ducas on the throne. He fought against it, but lost. Fearing that Romanus would make another attempt to become Emperor, Ducas had him blinded and paraded through the streets on a donkey. He died in captivity shortly after.

With events like that going on in the capital there was no way that Byzantium could make plans to take back Anatolia. Even after Romanus' death there was still constant tension between politcal factions present in the capital.

[Rosacrux]

The Byzantine army that fought at Manzikert was much, much stronger than the Seljuks. The reason the Byzantines lost at Manzikert was purely treachery. A fine Byzantine (and Greek in general...) tradition, as a matter of fact. The first sacking of Constantinople was also the result of treachery (a wannabe emperor called in the Pope and the Doge).

Byzantine history is so full of treson, it's not even fun to mention all the cases.

[Cooperman]

When playing as the byzantines the key is keeping your borders as small as possible. You'll have a lot of crusades coming your way and you'll need to be able to defend against them. The key bottlenecks are Georgia and Constantinople any attacker from europe must pass through one of these and they must be held at all costs.
Naples as a province is nothing if you lose it it doesn't matter and it isn't worth defending.
Dont worry too much about greece, bulgaria and serbia they are nice to hold but again they stretch your borders. You dont want a large army in serbia if a crusade tries to pass through bulgaria, whereas if constantinople is your front line you can place your entire army there knowing they must attack you where your strongest.
Advancing into Russia is a mistake until you have a strong economy and can build a large occupation army to keep the peace. Remember spendimg money developing these provinces is a mistake prior to the appeareance of the golden horde is a mistake as theres a good chance that they'll change hands a few times during the battles with the mongols.
The key area to advance is into muslim territories, theres some very rich provinces in antioch and egypt but take it carefully you dont want to be fighting them at the same time as fighting crusaders in the north but the advantage is that your on the edge of the map and so only need armies in 2 provinces at most.
Control of the seas is vital attack enemy shipping at all times dont let anyone else build up a fleet as you'll have a lot of undefended coastlines.

[Heretic]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Dec. 31 2002,15:38)]The Byzantine army that fought at Manzikert was much, much stronger than the Seljuks. The reason the Byzantines lost at Manzikert was purely treachery. A fine Byzantine (and Greek in general...) tradition, as a matter of fact. The first sacking of Constantinople was also the result of treachery (a wannabe emperor called in the Pope and the Doge).

Byzantine history is so full of treson, it's not even fun to mention all the cases.
Exatly the truth http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
If you want to go into deeper details, the commander of the cavalry (and the reserves) was bought by the turks along with the mercenary horse archers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif This would not be that lethal, but without their own cavalry, it was just a turkey shoot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Still I cannot know how the hell the general could stand there and see as the encircled vareg guards and the infantry got slaughtered. Human nature is a mistery http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Xiahou]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Dec. 31 2002,15:38)]The Byzantine army that fought at Manzikert was much, much stronger than the Seljuks. The reason the Byzantines lost at Manzikert was purely treachery. A fine Byzantine (and Greek in general...) tradition, as a matter of fact. The first sacking of Constantinople was also the result of treachery (a wannabe emperor called in the Pope and the Doge).

Byzantine history is so full of treson, it's not even fun to mention all the cases.
You know, I wish things like that were included in the SP campaign... because as it stands its just way too easy to win this game.

Very few rulers of any nation could afford to leave their capitol for long, because traitors would begin plotting against them almost immediately after they leave. Also, you couldnt trust generals to go out and do your fighting for you- if they did and were successful, then it wouldnt be long until the decided they'd make a better emperor than you and would come back at the head of your own army to make it so. Its too bad that none of this made it into the game.

[Cooperman]

Quote[/b] ]Very few rulers of any nation could afford to leave their capitol for long, because traitors would begin plotting against them almost immediately after they leave. Also, you couldnt trust generals to go out and do your fighting for you- if they did and were successful, then it wouldnt be long until the decided they'd make a better emperor than you and would come back at the head of your own army to make it so. Its too bad that none of this made it into the game.

I think they tried after all the kings location affects province loyalty but it's just too easy to maintain loyalty by marrying princesses to generals, assigning titles and using spies/assassins to root out the disloyal ones.

[Heretic]

Yes, and if you marry your princess with one of your generals, in real history this was the root of all trouble (The general became an usurper, gained legitimaty for his purpose, because his son/daughter have loyal blood in their veins)

[chilliwilli]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Dec. 31 2002,15:38)]The Byzantine army that fought at Manzikert was much, much stronger than the Seljuks. The reason the Byzantines lost at Manzikert was purely treachery. A fine Byzantine (and Greek in general...) tradition, as a matter of fact. The first sacking of Constantinople was also the result of treachery (a wannabe emperor called in the Pope and the Doge).

Byzantine history is so full of treson, it's not even fun to mention all the cases.
How could you possibly say The Byzantines were stronger? Their force was made up of mostly ill-disciplined mercenary troops. The only real Byzantine troops were the units personally commanded by Andronicus, Romanus, and Byrennius which was small percentage of the army. Byrennius was slaughtered before the main battle even took place after running into the Seljuk army, he was chasing some feigning Turks. Its estimated that before some of their troops deserted, The Byzantines had between 60,000 and 100,000 men. Even before the battle disension broke out between the many ethnic groups in The Byzantine army. It was a melting pot of Germans, Bulgars, Normans(deseretd before the battle), Armenians, and Turkish Cumans(deserted to the Turkish side after being attacked by Alp Arslan). The Seljuks on the other hand had about 40,000 disciplined regular troops who were expert horseman and bowman like most Turks from Central Asia. Because of the greater mobility of their troops, The Byzantines inflicted virtually no casualties on The Turks while The Turks were having their way with The Byzantines. The only action that The Byzantine army took was when some cavalry angrily charged the horse archers, but after chasing The Turks they soon realized it was a trap and then they were sluaghtered. Romanus realized he was fighting a losing battle and he signaled retreat, but the imperial was standard was misinterpreted and the rest is history. The entire army was cut down to the man.

Now you'll probably have a response to this which is ok, but lets make sure this doesn't get moved to the monastery. This a good guide by Shades would be shame.

[Zauba'a]

Departing from the historical debate going on, I'd like to ask for some help with my current Byz SP campaign.


Here it is: I own pretty much everything east of Austria (and Cyrencia), and south of Lithuania. The Almohads own everything else (only a few other factions remain, but they all own about 2 provinces at the most). I thought I could share Europe with the Almohads but they just HAD to attack me. I have around 10 main armies (all with +7 star generals) scattered around the map. Two of my main armies are in Cyrencia (both 9 stars) waiting to attack the some 4,000 Almohads in Tunisia. And two more main armies are in the North preparing to attack the around 5,000 Almohads in Prussia. The Almohads own the western mediterranean with their navy and they just landed at Greece with around 1,000 men.

I tried out this plan of attack, and it didn't go so well. I took Greece no trouble. I kicked the Alm navy out of the eastern Med. My northern armies wolloped those 5,000 but lost pretty much their entire armies doing so (those Byzantines fight till they're burger). My southern Armies however were totally decimated. I can see the end is nigh for my great Byz Empire if I don't come up with some amazing plan.

I tried a little espionage but I just don't think it will work.

So the question is: What can I do to save the my Great Purple Empire?

P.S. Due to my sh*tty graphics card (Voodoo http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif ARGH) I can't command any battles personally -- I have to let the machine do it. So don't waste your time with tactical suggestions.

[Kraxis]

All this treachery bring a good prospect in future games.

Like we can now back the rebels in Civil Wars we could have the Allies of a faction back the Loyalists side in the Civil War, and enemies automatically ally the rebels. The factions could then (if the diplomacy was expanded to sending expedition corps&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif send help and we would end up having a World War (true Total War). So until the Civil War was settled there would be two faction of the same faction, such as a Civil War in Byzantium would be the true Purple (loyalists) and a lighter purple for the rebels. No peace would ever be possible in a Civil War.

Now that has some great prospects, and would bring great fun to the game.

[kataphraktoi]

Romanus Diogene's Turkish campaign

Did you know that Romanus Diogenes actually waged a few campaigns against the Seljuk Turks with resounding success? If Romanus Diogenes had won the previous battles against the Turks why then did Manizkert turn out so horribly wrong?

Treachery and Mercenaries are the two reasons

Treachery, even before Diogenes set foot for Anatolia he his position as Emperor was tenable and unstable, the Ducas family were a powerful noble family who coveted the throne and therefore plotted the downfall of Diogenes.
Heres how it unfolded: Romanus had an army numbered at least 70,000, of this a detachment was sent to Armenia under Joseph Tarchanieotes who for some reason vanished not to be heard - apparently tarchanieotes was siding with the Ducas.
Another detachment was sent towawrds Manizkert and was destroyed.
By the time Diogenes arrived at Manikert his forces were reduced but still numerous, over the next few days desertion was rife amongst the Turkish mercenaries like Uz turks.
The real deathknell was in the heat of battle, under Andronicus DUCAS, the reserve of the Byzantine army refused to advance forward and support the heroic Diogenes in the heat of the battle, that was the turning point. The battle was still evenly matched - the turkish horse archers were pinned down.
by nightfall Diogenes and his loyal retainers were still fighting until he was left to die.......

It wasn't byzantine incompetence in the field, the previous victory of byzantines over the seljuks were proof enough, it was byzantine treachery through and through.
Mercenaries were indeed a major factor but not the overwhelming factor - factional divisions were.

[ShadesWolf]

The campaign is progressing well, there will be a new update tonight...

One question thou, What year do the Mongols appear.

[Ueriah]

Shades,

Nice work. Very informative and educational.

One thing that you don't seem to touch on, however, is the importance of maritime trade. My current single player campaign is as Italy, and I've made it a point to have Venice build a fleet of Galleys almost from the get-go. It's currently 1187 in that campaign, and my navy stretches from the Black sea to the Baltic Sea. Many of the Medterrainian (god I can't spell that) provinces have two or more galleys in them so that I can aggressively attack Muslim ships as they are built. Italian sea domainance also means that I can drop attacks where they are weak without having my own homelands endangered, but perhaps more importantly is the trade income. Venice alone is making about 4000 florins a turn, mostly from trade.

The Byz seem to be in a position very simalar to the Italians in that they are a maritime society that could really benefit from naval trade. More florins never hurts, right?

[fenir]

Hmmmmm usually by 1108AD I have control al the way to Triopli and Syria.

I also Let Naples fall.

The Best way to keep it is,
1. Lower tax to very low
2. Build Border Forts1
3. Build Border Forts2
Because the Ai never seems to rebel if the Loyalty is going up.
By the time this is done, you can usually safely put tax to Low.
Then Build Fort.
Then Milita building, Or a Spearmaker/Sword maker.
I usually go for Sword, as the Infantry can hide in the Forest, and attack the Normans from there.
Therefore no Cavalry threat, no Spearman Bonuses.

hope that helps


fenir http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[ShadesWolf]

I will cover trade, the turks etc in my update (hopefully tonight)

Hopefully monster will go to bed early enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I find trade amazing - im getting 3000 credits/florins income from constantinople alone. What a very important provance it is.

[ShadesWolf]

The first section of the SP campaign guide is now complete.

It covers the Byzan early period from 1087 to 1200. I feel any further update on this game now would be counter productive, as the guide is intended to get you started on your own campaign and not to follow in my foot steps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif.

Therrfore I feel 113 years of a civilization would have allowed you to

1. Advance your borders
2. Create a Navy
3. Create a strong army
4. Grow the economy

The Byzantine SP campaign's (Early, High, Late) (http://www.shadesmtw.com/gaminginfo/byzanfaction.htm)

[kataphraktoi]

With Naples I build a whole bunch of spearmen. The pathetic sicilian royal knights get slaughtered pretty badly by lowly byzantine spearmen, works all the time.

bwahahahahahaha..............

Shades wolf excellent job...very byzantine in your devious execution of diplomacy, trade and outright military hostility.

yeah Constantinople is a beauty isn't it? All those florins that come from one province, its also rewarding with a governor with 9 acumen.

I never trade with Egyptians, I want an accurate idea of what my economy is like without the money gained from trading with them, by doing this I won't expect a negative figure when I start hostilities.

[Kensai Achilles]

wow, what a great deal of efforts u've put there, awesome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I also want to contribute. The small islands south of anatolia Not much of income there... but usefull as dedicated shipbuilders. 3 or 4 ships produced per turn, then we'll grow rich and strong in no time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

And later on after we no longer need new ships, we can use them to produce loads of spies, assasins, preachers, or cannons which ever we like since they already have castle upgrades from the shipbuilding program.

cheers.

[kataphraktoi]

Is there a dedicated byzantine clan out there for MTW players?

[ShadesWolf]

I have updated the high campaign for the Byzantium empire, this only leaves the Late period to be covered.....

[ShadesWolf]

## kataphraktoi ##

Just read your thread about a byzan clan.....

How interested are u in Byzan history,

I am a member of a small group of like minded people who are interested in history generally, and we have setup a group called OOOO Forum link (http://pub158.ezboard.com/bonerorderofomissions) Come and have a look and tell me what you think Web site (http://oooo.freewebspace.com/)

[andrewt]

I also rush the 3 islands to shipbuilding, then build a tavern and brothel or church while building ships. After I don't need them anymore, I make spies and assassins. I do that with every shipbuilding province in every faction. My record in Constantinople is in the 8000s in income with very high taxes, 8 acumen governor, merchants' guild and 40% farm. Antioch could surpass that because of it's goods.

[ShadesWolf]

##andrewt##

Do u mind if I use this info on my web site.

bump

[ShadesWolf]

I have now completed the first section on Byzantine. All three Era's are now complete and available to be viewed via the dropdown menus at the top.

Have a look and tell me what you think.....

SP Guide to playing the Byzantine faction (http://www.shadesmtw.com/gaminginfo/byzanfaction.htm)

[Kraxis]

Grrrr... you still haven't put up the info on the units as you promissed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Turbo]

Quote[/b] (chilliwilli @ Jan. 01 2003,12:41)]
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Dec. 31 2002,15:38)]The Byzantine army that fought at Manzikert was much, much stronger than the Seljuks. The reason the Byzantines lost at Manzikert was purely treachery. A fine Byzantine (and Greek in general...) tradition, as a matter of fact. The first sacking of Constantinople was also the result of treachery (a wannabe emperor called in the Pope and the Doge).

Byzantine history is so full of treson, it's not even fun to mention all the cases.
How could you possibly say The Byzantines were stronger? Their force was made up of mostly ill-disciplined mercenary troops. The only real Byzantine troops were the units personally commanded by Andronicus, Romanus, and Byrennius which was small percentage of the army. Byrennius was slaughtered before the main battle even took place after running into the Seljuk army, he was chasing some feigning Turks. Its estimated that before some of their troops deserted, The Byzantines had between 60,000 and 100,000 men. Even before the battle disension broke out between the many ethnic groups in The Byzantine army. It was a melting pot of Germans, Bulgars, Normans(deseretd before the battle), Armenians, and Turkish Cumans(deserted to the Turkish side after being attacked by Alp Arslan). The Seljuks on the other hand had about 40,000 disciplined regular troops who were expert horseman and bowman like most Turks from Central Asia. Because of the greater mobility of their troops, The Byzantines inflicted virtually no casualties on The Turks while The Turks were having their way with The Byzantines. The only action that The Byzantine army took was when some cavalry angrily charged the horse archers, but after chasing The Turks they soon realized it was a trap and then they were sluaghtered. Romanus realized he was fighting a losing battle and he signaled retreat, but the imperial was standard was misinterpreted and the rest is history. The entire army was cut down to the man.

Now you'll probably have a response to this which is ok, but lets make sure this doesn't get moved to the monastery. This a good guide by Shades would be shame.
Dude,

You have the facts wrong.

The army was a Byzantine (mostly from Anatolia) army that Romanus spent a year rebuilding in 1068 with mercenary contingents. This army defeated Alp at the Battle of Sebastia (Sivas)and fought against the Normans in Italy (1070). This same army drove the Turks (led by Alp) out of Armenia and Mesopotania as a result of the battle of Heraclea (Eregli).

THE CAMPAIGN
Romanus was undone from the start by the traitor General Basilacius. Basilacius' mission was to screen the Byzantine army advance with 10k-15k covering force. Basilacius deliberately withdrew to the southwest (he was in league with Ducas). Romanus was surprised by the Turks (Alp). Ducas treachery didnt stop there, he incited the desertion of Kipchak and Pecheneg light cavalry that further eroded Romanus' army. Romanus had begun the campaign with about 50,000 men, the treachery of Basailacius and the treacherous desertion of the mercenary cavalry lowered this number to 35,000 men while Alp had over 50,000.

THE BATTLE
The battle of Manzikert began with Turkish horse archers opening fire. The desertion of the light cavalry was keenly felt by the Byzantines. Despite inferiority in numbers, Romanus turned and attacked, surprising the Turks, and pushing them back so far that he took the enemy camp (this was not a trap as you state). With dusk approaching, Romanus began to fall back to regroup. What he didn't know was that Ducas had apparently and secretly made a deal to retreat once the battle was joined. When the Turks began to attack, Romanus ordered a halt and turned to fight. This was a critical point in the battle, and Romanus' front lines contained the initial attacks (they did not flee as you state). Romanus was betrayed here by Ducas who continued to withdraw. Ducas' treachery allowed the Turks to flank and overwhelm the two front lines. Survivors fell back where Romanus personally rallied a small force of mercenaries and regulars (he was still unaware of Ducas' treachery). These men did not flee, but held their ground, surrounded, and refused to surrender. Legend is that Alp so impressed by the bravery of these men that he offered surrender terms. When Romanus refused, almost every man in this group was cut down.

Alp gave orders that Romanus be taken alive and unhurt. Ducas definately had hoped that Romanus would die in battle. Regardless, Ducas sent word that no ransom would be paid for Romanus in the hopes that Alp would do their dirty work. It is obvious that Ducas misjudged Alp, who despite his barbaric reputation, apparently respected his foe.

Alp released Romanus on his word to repay ransom, surprising as Ducas had put his nephew Michael VII on the throne and Alp knew the extent of the treachery. Romanus was captured and blinded by Ducas' men (his wife Eudocia is believed to have betrayed him). His last act was to gather up as much wealth as possible to pay his ransom to Alp. Truly a tragic end for a great man and a great empire.