Cavalry Formation

[Gaius Julius]

I was just wondering, which formation (close, loose, or wedge); for cavalry, works the best?

Lately, I've been deploying my cavalry in the wedge formation for battle.
I had success using this formation, flanking can be devastating.
Read in TOC - Battlefield Tactics - about wedge formations,
that you get a +3 attack, +3 defense bonus.

Just wondering what everyone's opinion is. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Dr_Who_Regen#4]

Not sure what I feel is better...but I believe wedge is +3 attack and -3 on defense.

So I would tend to say it depends on the situation for me. If I think they will break the other unit then wedge, otherwise probably not because I don't want to lose them to the unit they just attacked or to a quick counter attack from another unit. Since I started to play expert i find it particularly hard to break an enemy formation with my cavalry unless they are a particularly strong unit. So I usually just kep them in closed formation...but I could very easily be wrong on this one...Just my thoughts

[Gaius Julius]

Just read in Entrance Hall, "New? Please Read This First"
Wedge +3 melee, -3 defense. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Which is it?

[pdoan8]

+3 melee, -3 defense is correct.

Depends on each player referrence, style,..., each may use cav differently. For me, I charge cav in wedge very often especially those heavy cav with very high defense such as Chiv Knights, Lancers,...

[Gaius Julius]

Quote[/b] (pdoan8 @ Jan. 20 2003,22:31)]+3 melee, -3 defense is correct.
Thankyou, for clearing that up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[deejayvee]

Is it worthwhile having them on Wedge for the charge and then change to Close Formation for melee?

[Kongamato]

I prefer to use Wedge formation in flanking attacks.

When attacking from the side, the Wedge works excessively well, especially on Pavise Arbalesters. What happens is either a man is killed by the impact of the wedge, or he is bounced back and absorbed by the advancing wedge. When this happens, the pyramid shape funnels them in, essentially working like a Plinko board, bouncing them along the wedge's good depth until they eventually get charged to death. In a rectangular formation, the men behind a unit that just stopped will get stopped too, losing their charge. After using the Polish Retainers with their Irresistible Charge often, I have noticed that the wedge works obscenely well. That is not to say that the head-on rectangular charge works as well; I have punched holes clean through routing Pav Arb lines by charging the cav at a point far away from them.

[Tyrac]

Wedge is the best formation when running down fleeing units. They are not hitting back so the more att the better and def penalty is not an issue.

[desdichado]

Quote[/b] (Tyrac @ Jan. 21 2003,16:22)]Wedge is the best formation when running down fleeing units. They are not hitting back so the more att the better and def penalty is not an issue.
I don't know about defence not being an issue - I have seen my light cavalry being killed when chasing down fleeing units. Obviously when a routing soldier is attacked he can still fight back although I would guess his attack/defence values are lower than normal due to routing. Anyone know for sure?

[[RDH] Spetz Natz]

Quote[/b] (desdichado @ Jan. 21 2003,00:46)]
Quote[/b] (Tyrac @ Jan. 21 2003,16:22)]Wedge is the best formation when running down fleeing units. They are not hitting back so the more att the better and def penalty is not an issue.
I don't know about defence not being an issue - I have seen my light cavalry being killed when chasing down fleeing units. Obviously when a routing soldier is attacked he can still fight back although I would guess his attack/defence values are lower than normal due to routing. Anyone know for sure?
Yes I have seen the same thing happen with my units getting killed chasing after routers. Doesn't happen often, though I would assume the "impetuous" morale of a chasing unit tends to decrease the defense of the unit, making it just a little more likely a routing unit can still inflict casualties.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[el_slapper]

IMHO, the problem of fleeing soldiers fighting back is only when you attack them head-on. I've lost hobilars to italian infantry like this... But while chasing, losses are scarce - even with weak steppe horse vs anticav units.

[Acronym]

When you go up against a hord of cav 1 line deep you'll forget all about the wedge.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

And obviously nobody wants to hold formation in wedge... Or worse skirmish...

Does the wedge effect (+3/-3) last even after some time in Engage at will and well, not such a nice wedge formation? Do you need to kind of 'hold' the wedge to get the benefit?

There are some losses in pursuing fleeing soldier with cav in wedge. Still, it's usually worth it.

About the 1 line formation, there shall be some morale penalty for broken formation, if two ends of one unit get to far from one another without some consistency...

Have a nice day,
Louis

[Postino]

wedge is quite nice to counter a 1 file charge as the wedge has "2" fronts and one rear.

and on hold position and formation, a cav will go where you tell it, and attempt to roll over whatever is in its path to get there.

so as long as the charge is the same or better, a wedge will cut through a single line if ordered to move to a spot behind it. also the wedge can be used to widen gaps in the front by charging them through. then close ranks and attack any rear of your choice.

once entrenched, then hit engage at will and recharge the enemy.

but wedge on flanks? if there is a furball of enemies then yes but i think it is better to get as many men on the flank as possible at one time. so i only use the wedge to flank when there is a great # of men to cut into, if the flank is spread then close.

loose: only with allans that happen to be on pavise duty and under fire. usually not even then as i give them armor upgrades to counter the missiles.

[Michael the Great]

This is REALLY stupid...+3 attack -3 defence....
I agree that hold formation should increase defence but a wedge increasing attack?? It's not real...
The wedge was used for charging only how can a formation give you extra attack,when the formation still breaks after the charge?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
What they SHOULD do is this:
The wedge should give +3 CHARGE and -3 defence..and only while the charge takes place.
Thus they should make charges last longer.
After charge,no more bonuses/penalties from wedge.
That's the way it should be done.

[Spino]

I think +3 attack, -3 defense for Wedge formation is very reasonable. Keep in mind that a unit in wedge formation that is not moving and/or charging and is being attacked should suffer defense penalties. When attacked those in the front ranks will be at a serious disadvantage since there are fewer comrades on their flanks. A static wedge also possesses none of the momentum and penetration that a charging wedge brings so it makes sense that its defense ratings should suffer.

Am I the only one who spreads his light cavalry units out in long, 1 or 2 row formations when running down routing enemy soldiers? The wider the net the more fish you catch... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif

[Exile]

I also chase down routing troops with a very wide formation Spino it seems to catch more enemy troops. I try to overtake the routing enemy from the side or rear, otherwise I lose a few of my own troops.

Wedge - charging from flank or rear, or charging a much weaker unit from the front. Also my formation of choice for Heir removal http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Loose - standing and under missile fire
Close - all other situations

[Syterion]

I know that wedge is good for flanking but how do you put cav in 1 line deep formation? Do you have to do the group formation 1 line, then stretch it really wide to do 1 line deep? Or is there an easier way?

[Exile]

just selct the unit and then left click and drag at the location you want that unit to move. The unit will asume the wider (or narrower) fromation and move to the location you selected. Try it while the game is paused the first time or so - it's a nifty little trick http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Major Robert Dump]

Wedge is not stoopid as you are only supposed to keep your unit on wedge for a second after they engage. The whole purpose is to use the unit as a line breaker (preferably from behind or a flank), then

1)swiftly change to close formation to mop up OR

2) withdraw the unit (cntrl-w)and prepare for another strike. I noticed (pre-patch at least) that these hit and run tactics work quite well when switching from wedge to close and so forth.

Also, it should be noted that units make sharper, quicker turns when on wedge and become slightly more mobile. Ever had your front line engaged with a small gap not quite big enough to put a unit through??? Then put the bugger on wedge and charge it right through the gap. Also, for quick flanks and turns between enemy units on the move, wedge can slip through unscathed in spots where a conventional close formation would have gotten your men engaged.

All in all, the bonus and penalty doesn't matter that much to me... its the manueverabiltiy that I seek out. It's a small, very small, part of the overall game and is useful only in VERY SPECIFIC circumstances, but it can be the difference between a flank gone right and a flank gone wrong, especially with cav.

[Silencer]

I noticed when running down fleeing units,
do not order 2 calv untts to attack the same group.
When that happens, both calv units take hitts, the one on the front, the most.
For example, if a unit is running down a fleeing unit,
first stop the persueing unit, move out of the way, and then charge the fast calvary on the routers.

S.

[Postino]

Quote[/b] (Major Robert Dump @ Jan. 21 2003,18:38)] Ever had your front line engaged with a small gap not quite big enough to put a unit through??? Then put the bugger on wedge and charge it right through the gap. Also, for quick flanks and turns between enemy units on the move, wedge can slip through unscathed in spots where a conventional close formation would have gotten your men engaged.
yep yep... i usually feild a 20 man cav unit just for this reason(other than my general)

want proof? see above.