Druzhina Cavalry

[Kongamato]

The new Russian special unit for the Viking Invasion is Druzhina Cavalry. Since these guys are going to fill a void in the Russian army, I would like to know what they will need to be in order to fill this void.

IMO the Russians needed a more advanced spear unit, but it appears that in order to promote uniqueness they will get another cav unit.

A site on Russian Arms and Armor that I found (http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/armor.html)

After reading this I am starting to think that the Druzhinas might be a system of units, like Chivalric or Gothic. But that is only a speculation. But that is beyond the point. If the Russians get cavalry for a new unique unit, in what way will that help them?

So, how do you think the Druzhina cav will help the Russians?

[Efrem Da King]

If they have lances or guns they will be good if not?

[Basileus]

I hope they get a good heavy cav which will be fast, would be fun to play around with that and boyars who needs inf http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Emp. Conralius]

hmm... I dont like the idea of a new cav. unit. I thought the Boyars more than fitthe bill. I would've liked tosee a unique Russian form of infantry.

[Exile]

A new Russian calvary unit? but the Lithuanian Calvary is sooo good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I agree that a unigue infantry unit would have been more interesting, but I have no idea of Russian history in that time period. In that respect maybe the Druzhina Calvary is the best fit.

[bosdur]

If druzina will be uber then yes I would welcome it, such as as powerful as chiv knight with armour piercing and not slow.

[Kongamato]

I worried about the fact that the Druzhina Cav might need to be super-hvy cav to give the Russians an edge, effectively being "The Lancers of the Northeast"

[bosdur]

Yes, but with no capable infantry to support them, the uber druzina will at least be harder to use and this imo balances it out. Its not the case with spain where they have decent infantrymen. Besides if no steps are taken to balance lancer and byzantine infantry whats to bother with another unbalanced unit.

[andrewt]

If you think Russians don't have good spear, you should take a look at Byzantines. The Byz infantry is good sword infantry but they don't have cavalry stoppers. The way I deal with cavalry is usually to charge back at them using kataphraktoi. Russians are very lacking in the infantry department since Byzantines have 2 unique infantry and Russians only get pikemen and halberdiers, which Catholic factions have.

[Efrem Da King]

They should be lucky the french don't get any http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif .

[Mr Frost]

Interesting article .
I gave Novgorod Pronoiai Allegion and I plan on making those their Royal Unit for the early period {I base all my mods on Paladins' 1092 Venice Variant , where you can play as Novgorod} . They serve in the same capacity as Basileus seems to require .
I also gave them Varangian Guard {I just susspend my disbelief over the names http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif} as they seem to certainly have had heavy infantry , and that article seems to support that {lots of armour-peircing weapons to begin with} . I think I will give them Kerns also in light of the various mentions of javilins {if a society makes many of it's javilins entirely from metal then it was fairly serious and earnest about their use being they would have cost far more to make} .
The lack of a good spear unit I consider academic at the moment . I am unsure how advanced those particular units were in the Russias back then , and with plain spears teamed with Vikings {Novgorod gets Vikings ... something else that article supports , or atleast lots of troops using axes} and some imagination you can handle most any threat .
I modded the Build requirements also , so {for example} Bulgarian Brigands {who now use the heavily altered Ninja Star stats in the Projtile stats.txt to reflect using composite bows with performance between Shortbows and Longbows} require a Bowers Workshop and a Swordsmith so they can get good units {those Bulgars are quite good if you use them wisely} without having to struggle to build up the simple fort Novgorod starts with to a Citadel ; the build requirements for some units were excessive {I made Byzantiums' Trebizonds require a Bowers Workshop to balance the Ttrebs' greater utility with the "ninjastar" composite bow} . The Bulgarian Brigands seem to nicely represent the scirmisher archers the article describes .

As for spears for Byzantines {Andrewts' post} I took Scaracen Infantry and altered them to better suit their description on the in-game parchment so they now have melee 0/1 , defence 4/8$ {with sheild} , armour 5$ and moral 2 with dicilpined and alowed them to be produced by Byzantium {I am sure had they wanted they could have easily produced such units and probebly did} whilst I modded Byzantine Infantry to have only 60 men per unit but melee 3 , defence 4$ , armour 5$ and moral 2 {Scaracen infantry use the same base soldier if you look at them , so they look like they belong in a Byzantine army : a nice coincidence that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif} making them still rather powerful but more like other shock units in the game . Byzantiums' new model army {as I have modded it} is very strong in the early period , but gets outdated in the later periods
{I like to play Glorious Acheivements and make a game last so this point comes into effect for me} and makes playing anyone in their part of the map rather more of a chalange {try taking them early with the Turks the way I have things is virtually impossible , they are a major threat for a good long time} .

[Captain Fishpants]

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Jan. 19 2003,02:26)]The new Russian special unit for the Viking Invasion is Druzhina Cavalry. Since these guys are going to fill a void in the Russian army, I would like to know what they will need to be in order to fill this void.

IMO the Russians needed a more advanced spear unit, but it appears that in order to promote uniqueness they will get another cav unit.

A site on Russian Arms and Armor that I found (http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/armor.html)

After reading this I am starting to think that the Druzhinas might be a system of units, like Chivalric or Gothic. But that is only a speculation. But that is beyond the point. If the Russians get cavalry for a new unique unit, in what way will that help them?

So, how do you think the Druzhina cav will help the Russians?
The Russians (along with other factions) also get an Armoured Spearmen unit too, so don't assume that you've been told everything about the Viking Invasion pack just yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif The Druzhina should make life quite interesting for the Russians - and their enemies.

MikeB ~ CA

[Efrem Da King]

Yay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . Do the french get anything?

[Captain Fishpants]

The French, being among the many Europeans to enthusiastically - if not very tactfully - adopt gunpowder as a weapon, get access to the Organ Gun. This is a late period weapon (not surprising, given what it does and the level of skill needed to make a collection of gunbarrels that don't blow the crews' faces off

Organ Guns can be produced in any province with a Master Foundry and a Master Gunsmith.

The chances are that any French player is going to see most of the new units as well - just in rebel armies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif There are a couple of new units where I'm tempted to let a rebellion happen just so that I can bribe any of the type that turn up in rebel armies... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

MikeB ~ CA

[SmokWawelski]

Captain, Thank You for sheding some light into the world of Vikings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif We are glad that you guys take some time to read our posts here


Quote[/b] ]A new Russian calvary unit? but the Lithuanian Calvary is sooo good

I cannot say so. IMHO they come too late (C'mon LATE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif ), are not as powerful (even weaker that Polish Retainers, which are a lot of easier to get, but at least stronger than MS) and do not look powerful http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Quote[/b] ]If druzina will be uber then yes I would welcome it, such as as powerful as chiv knight with armour piercing and not slow.

I think that creating another uber is not a good way to make Russians more interesting to play. Looking into their geography (MTW-wise, not real) I can see why the Devs opted for another cavalry: the open steep of east just beg you to use cavalry... But making it too powerful is not good.

[Emp. Conralius]

thanx for that info Fishpants. I hope I'm not asking to much, but will the actual "Viking" unit look the same as in MTW?

[LadyAnn]

French already got hobilars and templar knights http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif What do you ask further? And Gendarm is available to Italy and Spain,...

Annie
ps.: hat off to all the player out there who tried to use French army in MP despite of its unglamorous units. MizuYuuki (Puzz3D) is certainly the captain of the French cause, as he played exclusively (almost) as French lately.

[Foreign Devil]

Quote[/b] (Captain Fishpants @ Jan. 20 2003,06:50)]The Russians (along with other factions) also get an Armoured Spearmen unit too, so don't assume that you've been told everything about the Viking Invasion pack just yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Hmmm..... the Byzintines, perhaps? A high or late unit, perhaps? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Hakonarson]

Druzhina as uber?? ROFL - I wonder what these guys were smoking whn they decided that??

Russian Druzhina were initially mounted infantry - absolutely rubbish as cavalry. They gradually got better but remained fairly ordinary as far as cavalry went - they used shortish spears and javelins, wore 3/4 armour, etc.

Russian spearmen WERE quiet highly thought of, at leasy by the Byzantines, and an armoured spear category seems like a good place for them.

[Kongamato]

The Druzhinas no longer need uber-status as the Russians get a spear unit. If they had no spear unit, and were to receive another cav unit, It would have had to make up for the lack of spears by being uber-powerful.

[bosdur]

If Lancer stays on its course, then Id still welcome druzina as a new uber unit. I'm a supporter of "each faction, 1 uber unit" cause http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

[Lehesu]

In the real life, armies weren't always balanced. I would welcome another unit into the game, even if it doesn't fit a specific purpose. Giving a good cavalry civ more cavalry isn't neccesarilly bad, is it?

[Emp. Conralius]

Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Jan. 20 2003,13:48)]French already got hobilars and templar knights http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif What do you ask further? And Gendarm is available to Italy and Spain,...

Annie
ps.: hat off to all the player out there who tried to use French army in MP despite of its unglamorous units. MizuYuuki (Puzz3D) is certainly the captain of the French cause, as he played exclusively (almost) as French lately.
yea...but England get Templars and Hobilars as well. I'de lik to see maybe Templar Foot Knights or a heavily armored mace/flail unit.

[LadyAnn]

It was a sarcastic note I wrote about hobilar and templar units as special French units. Everyone knows the Franks in current version has no special units. All units are shared between English, Italian and Spainish plain vanilla units.

Somehow it was not Spain who had the finest cavalry depicted with the Lancers in this game. It was the Franks Cavalry at Agincourt and Crecy. Only with innept command and over-confidence to the point of stupidity that the French knights charged into fortified position without infantry support. But you don't get that kind of stupidity if you are not over confident you are having the best heavy cavalry of the hour, both in number and in armor. The fact that the Franks lost those famous battle wouldn't be a justification to downgrade their cavalry.

I know this game is not about historical accuracy, it is only a game, so I will be sarcastic for a while... And stay away from discussion about historic aspect of the game... if I could ...

So, bring on the Druizina (I like the female-sounding name, perhaps I'll use them because I start to play with the Rush-on army now).

Annie

[Emp. Conralius]

Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Jan. 20 2003,21:08)]It was a sarcastic note I wrote about hobilar and templar units as special French units. Everyone knows the Franks in current version has no special units. All units are shared between English, Italian and Spainish plain vanilla units.

Somehow it was not Spain who had the finest cavalry depicted with the Lancers in this game. It was the Franks Cavalry at Agincourt and Crecy. Only with innept command and over-confidence to the point of stupidity that the French knights charged into fortified position without infantry support. But you don't get that kind of stupidity if you are not over confident you are having the best heavy cavalry of the hour, both in number and in armor. The fact that the Franks lost those famous battle wouldn't be a justification to downgrade their cavalry.

I know this game is not about historical accuracy, it is only a game, so I will be sarcastic for a while... And stay away from discussion about historic aspect of the game... if I could ...

So, bring on the Druizina (I like the female-sounding name, perhaps I'll use them because I start to play with the Rush-on army now).

Annie
ok, you had me going for a secnd there...

what do you guys think of a mace or flail unit?

[Mr Frost]

I hear what your saying Lady Ann , that's why I modded Normandy to get a +1 Valour for Feudal Knights . I'm concidering to mod Brittany for Feudal Foot Knights also , but I am reluctant to make Feudal Foot buildable as Foot Knights seem to have been virtually non existant in the early period {to the best of my knowledge .

Not much use to you in M.P. , but it addresses the issue for me in S.P. nicely so France gets {assuming they have the provinces and can develop them properly . I base all my modding from Paladins' 1092 mod which gives the Catholic Factions one provine -the capital- the buildings to produce Feudal Knights ; and France starts off with more provinces ... England only has Normandy , which can be taken} Feudals nearly as good as Chivalrics {only the Armour stat is less and with 2 higher moral this balances} and Chivalrics better than Lancers {again , except for the Armour stat , but the 2 higher Honour ballances that} and gave Templars the full 8 charge bonus {and raised the cost to match ... I'm going to mod them buildable separate from a crusade eventually} . I also placed an extra starting Feudal Knight unit in Britany to give the A.I. a booster and it seems to have made a bit of a differance .

An exclusive French Knight {or several , one for Early , one for High and mabey a foot knight extra for Late} might be a good idea , but I don't know enough about modding to do that yet . Yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Of course , on the up side for France in M.P. and to their great gain in allure , puissance and splendeur , mon petit fleur , they have you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Mr Frost @ Jan. 20 2003,23:09)]I hear what your saying Lady Ann , that's why I modded Normandy to get a +1 Valour for Feudal Knights .
Hey... I did that too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Also made Feudals much easier to get (moved them down to Royal Court) and made ever Catholic faction able to get them from the get go.

[LadyAnn]

Mace or Flail would not be too historically correct, as the knights use lance. But it would be welcome as armor piercing unit is not too ready.

But then the French would be too powerful, some will say...

Annie

[Emp. Conralius]

I wasn't saying that Knights would use the mace or flail in particular. I would like to see them as a form of non-noble, armor-piercing havy infantry. But hey, I dunoo, whatever turns ya on...

[Efrem Da King]

Quote[/b] (Captain Fishpants @ Jan. 20 2003,11:44)]The French, being among the many Europeans to enthusiastically - if not very tactfully - adopt gunpowder as a weapon, get access to the Organ Gun. This is a late period weapon (not surprising, given what it does and the level of skill needed to make a collection of gunbarrels that don't blow the crews' faces off

Organ Guns can be produced in any province with a Master Foundry and a Master Gunsmith.

The chances are that any French player is going to see most of the new units as well - just in rebel armies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif There are a couple of new units where I'm tempted to let a rebellion happen just so that I can bribe any of the type that turn up in rebel armies... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

MikeB ~ CA
So is organ gun unique for freench, cause I wnna play france but seeing as they share all their units I have no reason to and get bored soon cause I don't have longbows or lancers to wait for.