R:TW Physics

[Acronym]

I don't know about anyone else, but I think it would be sweet to have a battle physics engine in RTW. Does anyone know if CA is doing this from the numerous previews?

If they used a physics engine, we wouldn't have the rock/paper/scissors formula, but instead stats could be applied to weapons and people in terms of weight, strength, momentum, etc. For example, let's say a greek hoplite soldier is 5'5" tall, weighs 200 pounds with armor(just off the wall numbers) and has an 8ft long spear that also has weight to it. Force, energy, and momentum formulas could be used to determine shock value and fighting effectiveness. Also the more weight on a soldier, the quicker he tires. Using physics we could also get the pushing effect of armies, so a deeper formation can literally shove a shallower one.

This would definetely come closer to modeling combat, since, for example, the roman soldiers fought more separately(ie they didn't push into the enemy as a solid mass), but hoplites or phalanxes could hold down an enemy and push them.

I'd rather have this instead of wedge = +3 attack, pikemen = +1 attack, etc. Using physics a wedge will naturally break a light formation instead of relying on numbers. Heck you can even model romen pila sticking on shields. Arrows, pila, spears, javalines, sarrisas, swords, etc can all have momentum and the momentum determines if it pierces the armor.

The only problem I see is the strain the computer, much less having to handle huge armies. Unless they had a built in real-time physics engine brilliantly coded. Maybe it's time for a physics card in our comps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Games such as Black & White 2( which looks sweet ) are taking use of physics, there's a pic that shows a cow creature being punchered by spears as they stick in it, and blood trickles down it's body. I want stuff like this in RTW It's gonna be a sweet game without all that, but just think what a physics engine could do for combat.

Thoughts/comments/hate crime welcomed...

[el_slapper]

Do you want armies of 3 or 4? I don't. It might be possible to add some physics, but not to the point you describe.

Maybe projectiles behaviour when striking shields, depending on the angle. Bounces, pierces, or get stuck. Once stuck, the shield is over(that was one of romans basic tactics).

But programming flesh's physics sounds to much for me. Metal vs metal is easy, it has been done in Steel Panthers. But flesh is faaaaaaaaaaaaar too complex, imho.

[Cazbol]

This could easily be done but I fear that el_slappers estimate of the maximum number of players is pretty accurate. The Total War series is about huge battles and everything else is secondary.

[Daveybaby]

There is always a point at which you will have to make approximations in your simulation. I mean, are we going to have to model it all the way down to a quantum level?

For a gaming simulation its a trade off between realism and speed. The main thing to bear in mind is: if a general approximation has the same overall effect as a detailed simulation, why bother with the detailed simulation?

i.e. if a detailed physics simulation results in pikemen suffering, say, 50% fewer losses against cavalry (on average) than 'normal' troops, why not just code in a 50% defensive bonus for pikemen, and abandon the physics simulation? The player isnt going to notice any difference (apart from that fact that the game wont require a Cray to run).

[JeromeGrasdyke]

There's a bigger problem than just speed here - game balancing becomes hellishly difficult and time consuming. Because nearly all of your combat resolution factors are dependent on the physics engine it becomes very important to the gameplay that your simulation is accurate and all factors are represented. Generally getting a simulation that 'playable' is a lot more difficult and time-consuming (especially with lots of interacting factors) than using a stats-based system ... then it comes down to a choice between doing a 'real' physical battlefield simulation or doing interesting units such as the incendiary pigs or better diplomacy AI.

It's an interesting idea, and we've gone a little ways down this road with Rome, but to carry it to the extreme that you're describing would be too costly... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Jerome ~ CA

[el_slapper]

I should have thought about it too... Steel Panthers works rather well as we have the accurate datas in hand, and historic battles can be remade with "physical" accuracy. But it remains at the battle level. For a full campaing... AOUCH

[rasoforos]

i personally do not mind the troops to be even coloured dots ...as long as i can get huge battles in a modest pc i am ok.

[Acronym]

BTW, I know it's not possible to keep speed up and implament all the physics I described, and more. Just throwing some idea's out there that have already been thought of http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Hakonarson]

Quote[/b] (el_slapper @ Jan. 22 2003,07:22)]I should have thought about it too... Steel Panthers works rather well as we have the accurate datas in hand, and historic battles can be remade with "physical" accuracy. But it remains at the battle level. For a full campaing... AOUCH
Even in SP a lot of "physics" is abstractly modelled - every bullet is not tracked ballistically, and exact angles of impact are not recorded - rather there are random variable assigned.

Check out Combat Mission for something that comes closer - but even then they stil abstract small arms fire and explosive effect - only individual shots (and bursts) from larger weapons are tracked.

Both of these games also are at a smaller scale than RTW proposes to be - having 1-200 fighting men on the battlefield (plus gun and vehicle crews) is about average - put 1000 men on and watch teh engien crawl as it generates a turn

[Knight_Yellow]

well black and white 2 is gonna let u have huge armies and phsics so it looks as though maybe just maybe itll do better battles than rtw

but i highly doubt it.

besides black and white 1 was crap thats why 2 is so radicaly different.