Need some fighting tips

[The Great Dane]

Hey guys

I´ve played both Shogun and MTW as long as they´ve been around.
Lost some battles down the road, but not one that could not be won by trying again until NOW

So please help me if you can.

The situation is I´m being attacked by a rebel force of 3.500 men in which there are about 1.000 - 1.500 knights
The whole force is leaded by a 6 star general.

I have now tried 5 different formations - even on the edge of the map with deep formations and very well protected flanks.

My own army consists of on 5 star - and two 3-star generals.
I have about 200 knights and loads of well trained spearmen and archers.
Furthermore I have a good mix of other high level troops and 2 catapults.
A total force of 3.000 men.

But my butt gets kicked in a way that I have NEVER seen before - how can I stop that many charging cavalry knights http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Thanks

[Shahed]

Hey mate

I have a couple of replays I can post around 21:00 GMT today, which may help.

tell me:

what map type is this ?
what kind of archers and spearmen have u got ?
what valor are your units ?
what command rating does your general have ?
what factions ?


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The Great Dane]

Hey SeljukSinan - and thanx

what map type is this ?
I´m at work so I can´t remember the name, but it´s on the northcoast of Spain - 2nd region from left.
Small hills and very small woods.

what kind of archers and spearmen have u got ?
At work so I can´t check and remember ;-)
But most of them high level

what valor are your units ?
hmmm - I´ve got about 50 units, but there are NOT al lot of high level units there....

what command rating does your general have ?
5 - 3 - 3

what factions ?
Me-Danes - enemy - Portugese rebels

[Asmodeus]

Yikes Portugese rebels are a very serious worry

[Shahed]

Hiya

I'm at work too, will load up some replays tonight, I think i have a solution.
Meanwhile have a look at these pics, general is 6-7 star, for the units in the pics just count the small flags for valor rating (if possible). I think most are valor 3 or so, anyway this formation stooped the Mongols in their tracks in Syria. the second pic was a battle somewhere in France, an engineered rebellion which had loads of cavalry.


http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/formations/singlefilearbas.jpg

http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/formations/singlefilearbas2.jpg

Later http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Sainika]

I use similar type of defensive position agaist loads of cavalry.
When enemy knights approach very close to your troops attack them with spearmen. The more units of knights one unit of spearmen involves in fight the bigger chances you have. Outflank enemy knights with spears.
Also I think that archers are of small help against knights so replace them into spears. Your situation is tough enough but solvable. In first wave keep your best (morale? armour/ weapon and defensive bonuses) troops.
Good luck

[Brutal DLX]

Turtle

[The Great Dane]

Hey Sainika

You´re right about the spearmen and the defensive position I can also recognise BUT when one unit rout, in the face of 500-1.000 knights pressure, the line folds.

And a problem you run into when fighting on the edge of the battlefield is, that your reinforcements can´t establish a line as they are attacked instantly when they become controllable.
Last night I had 44 units of reinforcements all smashed this way.

Remember the amount of knights attacking at the same time....

[Sainika]

If you stand still without attacking enemy knights your chances to win will be more fible. Initial charge is very tough and spearmen will rout immediately.
May be you should stand not near the edge of the map but on a hill into full circle position. And think about small ambush.

P.S. May be you should leave the province and buy your enemy next turn? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Anyway I think that will be a great battle and lot of fun if you win.

[Basileus]

You could retreat and if Navare is under your control try to defend there..you cant win all the battles..or re group and attack with more cavalary your self.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[kataphraktoi]

When I was playing thwe Byz I had to deal with the Pope trying to come back and get back his teritory, normally I would auto resolve it but I thought it might be fun to take the Pope on....anyway.

My tactics weren't innovative nor imaginative, they were simple and practical based on the quality of troops I had,

I had a large number of varangian guards, kataphraktois, byzantine cavalry and treb archers.

The Pope had a ridiculous number of chivalric knights, feudal knights, halberd and other pathetic catholic infantry and a few artillery pieces.

I entrenched myself on a high hill and placed my varangians in a liong line with archers behind, kataphraktoi were on the flanks with one byzantine unit as an envelopement force.

Basically the Varangians tore up everything in the way while other units fed on the scraps.

I never leave home without a sizeable heavy infantry contingent they can take on punishment from heavy cavalry and fight their way through almost anything.

SeljukSinan, thats a neat defensive formation, I experimented with a similar formation but since then haven't used it as much, its an amazing defensive-offensive formation

[Lord Of Storms]

My preference is wedge,also hold formation for the bonuses , and units would consist of pikes, halberds and bills are pretty effective in hacking up cav. I have not yet played the Byz. so I do not know what units you have available but this worked for me I was the English fighting many HRE Teutonic and Royal Knights and they did not stand a chance.

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (The Great Dane @ Jan. 20 2003,04:52)]I´m at work so I can´t remember the name, but it´s on the northcoast of Spain - 2nd region from left.
Small hills and very small woods.
That would be Castile.

I don't know just how small these woods are, but if it's possible, I'd try to put my infantry in the woods, even if it meant splitting my forces into divided groups. The penatly that cavalry gets in woods seems severe. Just yesterday my 60 trebizond archers mauled a unit of Armenian heavy cavalry in melee on normal difficulty. I never thought that possible. Only 7 Armenians got away.

If you try this, just keep the archers off the field until you've dealt with the knights. It would also help greatly if you didn't just have defensive spearmen but also some infantry with bite, like vikings, men-at-arms and such because the spears mainly hold the cavalry while the swords and axes kill them.

[Exile]

I agree with Cazbol. The Portugese will probably send their knights out first, so you can fight them alone before their infantry and archers reach you (chose a position on your side of the map). Try to engage the knights in the woods with your infantry. Move your archers and spearmen around to the knight's flanks once they are all safely engaged in the wood by your infantry. Charge your knights in from the rear for the coup de grace. Whatever you do, keep your general alive. Only use his unit for safe attacks on the flank/rear of an enemy unit that is engaged. At the beginning of battle, cycle your reinforcements to that the first units you bring in will be most helpful - calvary, if not then strong infantry.

I use a formation very similar to SeljukSinan if I cant get my units into the woods - but its weakness against knights is if they break your center. I might make a secondary infantry/spear line at the center and fan out the flanks to take advantage of possible outflanking opportunities.

1000-1500 knights under a 6 star general is a formidable force. good luck.

Plan B - let them have the territory and then bribe them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The Great Dane]

Hey guys - a big thanx for some helpful tips.

Actually I too use the same type of defensive formation as shown in the pictures (what a great idea to show it with in game picts.)
But the great disadvantage is - as I said earlier - that the reinforcements arriving won´t get a chance at forming formations.

Perhaps the answer is to get as far into the map as possible and devide forces so as to make, say 3 lines of defence with several hundred meters between them.

I´ll try out the tip concerning the small woods cause I won´t give up. It´s some sort of honour thing and of course fun to find a way to trick the portugese...

But still I´m chocked at the ammount of cavalry knights attacking me.
Every line of my spearmen has app. 3-4 units of enemy pressure at the same time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Shahed]

Hi all hi Great Dane http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Ok I finally got the time to find and upload a replay compilation. It's a zip file with 4 replays, unzip to savegames/battles directory, Download it from here:

Defensive U Syria (http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/downloads/mtwreplays/DefensiveUSyria.zip)

As soon as you click the link the file should start downloading to your PC. Email me if probs occur.

Great Dane watch them in sequence. i think the Syria 1 is the most important since it shows how to place your troops and the assembly piont flag, so that any reinforcements arrive inside the Defensive U.

I have another set of replays showing the success of this battle formation, which take place in Swabia. Watch the valor of the units in these replays, as you will see most of them return in the next batch, with valor 6-7. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif All replays are on expert mode. Does'nt flatter the AI too much.

I don't think I will be able to find and post the others till Saturday. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif But I will so check back then.

Hope this helps, as they say a picture is worth a thousand words, well a replay is worth how many then ??

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Shahed]

BUUUMP

Great Dane what's da news ? Did you crush em Portuguesers ?
Any replays for us to enjoy ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Devastatin Dave]

Seljuk, that is the puuurtiest formation I've seen in a while. I'm going home this afternoon and try it out against some unfaithful German pagans against my noble English fellas... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[HopAlongBunny]

Quote[/b] (The Great Dane @ Jan. 20 2003,05:54)]You´re right about the spearmen and the defensive position And a problem you run into when fighting on the edge of the battlefield is, that your reinforcements can´t establish a line as they are attacked instantly when they become controllable.
You may have tried this but here goes. When fighting at or near my edge of the map one of the first things I do is re-position the flag behind or very near my units. Usually (if I do it before I call reinforcements) the withdrawing units head off map near the flag, and incoming units arrive nearby (sometimes right behind my lines http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )

[trader/warrior]

Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ Jan. 20 2003,04:58)]Hiya

I'm at work too, will load up some replays tonight, I think i have a solution.
Meanwhile have a look at these pics, general is 6-7 star, for the units in the pics just count the small flags for valor rating (if possible). I think most are valor 3 or so, anyway this formation stooped the Mongols in their tracks in Syria. the second pic was a battle somewhere in France, an engineered rebellion which had loads of cavalry.


http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/formations/singlefilearbas.jpg

http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/formations/singlefilearbas2.jpg

Later http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
hmmmmm. maybe that one could be good with wedge formation?

[Shahed]

This is a defensive formation. the idea is simply to hold the enemy away (specially AI SP cav) from your missile units, while your missile units shoot the enemy.

Did anyone see the replays ? What do you think ?

[burma_mtw]

I don't know what the answer is. These are just some of my thoughts and experiences.

The largest force to attack me was 8300+. By the time anybody gets that big of an army together one ought to have some fairly well upgraded troops. If you are using basic spearmen and basic ranged weapon troops you may not have much of a chance.

A basic tactic that works well for me is to back up from the flag towards the edge of the map. This allows your units to leave the field of battle and the reinforcements to get into the battle more quickly. The enemy's have to go a much longer way. Doing so also reduces the areas on your flanks that can be attacked. Except for a very few countries, there is always some elevation towards the back. It may not be directly behind you but is won't be too far to either the right or the left. This also takes you out of range of any enemy assult weapons.

Some civiizations have units that just love to fight cavalry. I don't know what you have. Any type of cavalry just doesn't seem to bother Pikemen, for example.

Catapults are ok against low valor infrantry but I question their worth in general. One slow firing catapult just doesn't seem as useful as say a unit of 100 Italian Infrantry.

This basic 16-Unit configuration has been good for me:

4 Units of Parvis Arbalasts with Metalsmith upgrades.
6 Units of anti-cavalry troops (100/Unit)
General on Horseback (a Knight of some kind or even camels)
2 Units fast cavalry either with ranged weapons or not.
1 Units of attack infrantry.
2 Units of heavy cavalry.

Because you are on elevated ground, you can place the Arbalasts behind the anti-cav troops.

Do it something like this:

G
HC A A A A HC
AC AC AC AC AC AC

The attack infrantry can go either to the left or right and the fast cavalry goes as far forward as possible, one to the left and one to the right.

The assumption is that you are playing against AI software. Against humans I do not believe that there is any one technique that works all the time.

Regardless of how large a force the enemy fields, you only have to face 16 Units at a time. Your units leave the field and your reinforcements arrive faster then the enemy's so you shouldn't get overwhelmed by numbers. If your units tend to run away then you may want to reconsider how you build you armies. This is not a critism. Just something to think about.

When the battle begins, your Arbs will start to take out enemy troops first. The AC troops are there to keep anybody from getting to the Arbs. The AC's on the left and right are there to protect whichever flank gets attacked. If you are attacked on only one flank then you can bend your other flank around the enemy in an envelopement manuever.

The attack infrantry and either flank AC unit are there to hit from the back or side. Back attacks are extremely effective.

Of course, if the enemy general gets involved, do everything possible to take him out. If you succeed then the battle is all but over.

The fast cavalry out and to the left and right serves multiple purposes. First, once the enemy main force moves forward, they can move in and take out assult weapons (you don't want to run into them if you do some chasing). It is a timing thing, though. The sooner you take them out, the sooner large-unit replacements show up. Secondly, they are there to chase down an enemy general that is trying to leave the field of battle. lastly, they can be used to attack from behind, decimate units that are running away, or occupy enemy units if your fast cavalry are either archers or crossbowmen.

This should yield a high kill ratio. 4 to 1 is not uncommon but it is usually higher. I don't know if it is true, but a high kill ratio seems to make the enemy give up sooner.

Final thoughts. When I first started playing I tended to use formations that were more then two units deep. The problem that i ran into was that fact that I often had units standing around doing nothing. My experience has been that the more units you can have involved in a battle the more likely you are to win. Beware of the bait-run-counter attack tactic. If you can get enough units to the opponents edge of the map the do so. It won't matter how many reinforcements he has. Otherwise, stay on your hill and reinforce a unit if it gets very tired or very low on ammo. Favor a small number of quality units over a large number of whimps. The worst thing that can happen is if one or more of your units turns tail. And last, but not least, the AI's will let you out-flank them. Don't underestimate the value of an attack from either the side or from the back.

Again, just my thoughts...I could be wrong.