Hidden units under attack

[Dr_Who_Regen#4]

Part way into a battle (I was defending) my archers had run out of arrows. I had only 2 units of spearmen and one woodsman (who had very low morale) left. The enemy had 3 archer units, 1 feudal sargeant unit and a very deplated Italian Infranty unit. Their non-archer units were waiting out of sight as reserves. Since I was playing on Expert with a 0 star commander and minimal valour troops I did not want my guys to route and or tire out chasing down their archers. I also did not want to just take the barrage of arrows since the enemy was not engaging me in close combat and they could probably kill a great number of my troops with all of their archers.

So I decided to pull back into the forest to shield my guys from their arrows. I first pulled back one unit part way into a large forest to where it got a concelaqed symbol. I then pulled my other troops further into the forest and off to the side. The idea here was to try and force their archers to come into the forest and then suffer a flanking suprise attack would hopefully hhelp even the odds.

Much to my suprise the archers sat at thhe edge of the forest and started shooting arrows at my concealed unit and payed no attention to the visible ones. I could understand if their path took them in contact with my concealed unit but it had not.

So my question is. Does the AI cheat on this sometimes? Or can part of a unit not be concealed when it displays the little forest symbol on their tab? Or can you not hide a unit in battle once it has begun?

I am not sure but the battle was a fair distace away when my one unit moved into hiding and thus my unit should have been difficult to see.

Needless to say I ended up routing after my general died when I ended up fighting their Sargeants in close combat and those pesky archer...now out of arrows...kept sweeping around my flanks and rear. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif Perhaps if they had not been able to shhoot up my troops or if I could have forced more of their archers to run away I would not have lost http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Kraxis]

That is certainly a disturbing story....

I know we can see units that a concealed (we can't target them)... but attacking a hidden unit.

[jrexchandler]

If your troops were in open field and then moved into the woods, then any general would have figured out what you did.

If one minute the enemy is there standing next to some trees, then the next they are gone, it doesn't take a genius to figure out where they went http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Rex

[Dr_Who_Regen#4]

I am not concerned that they knew where I was, more that their archers targeted them at range and where able to score kills against a concealed unit.

[LadyAnn]

Annie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif blushing for not reading the post correctly. So the comment is editted out.

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Jan. 22 2003,19:00)]Moving into trees doesn't mean automatic concealment. Only if you have the green tree symbol in your unit icon that you are considered concealed. The unit must be in the forest for a while before the it is considered hidden. As soon as the unit moves, it is no longer hidden. Also, if the enemy is close enough, the unit is also discovered.

But moving into forest to lessen the damage cause by arrows and cavalry raid is a very valid tactic. Your move was right, your assumption about concealment was not.

Annie
Ann,

he said he got the concealment symbol...

So.. redo from start http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Husar]

I have once had a similar battle and i think that the AI cheats in this case.

[Spino]

No, I believe there is something going on 'behind the scenes', so to speak. Whether this is attributed to random visibility checks or the AI being given an unfair advantage with respect to troop dispositions is the real question. From personal experience I have detected AI units hidden in forests from a considerable distance. Whether they were actually concealed or simply in one of those weird patches of forest that do not offer cover I do not know.

I can remember one battle where I was defending against a numerically superior force that I was damn sure the AI was 'cheating' or succeeded in early detection of my concealed units. I had most of my troops arrayed on a hill near the rear edge of a large battle map with two heavy cavalry units hidden deep in a sizeable forest (emphasis on deep as they were nowhere near the treeline) on the far right and close enough to the right and rear map edge that I was sure even the most wide of flanking maneuvers by the AI would miss them. I also made sure both cav units were 'Concealed' and given 'Hold/Hold Position' orders before starting the battle. Unfortunately once the battle started the AI tried for a flanking maneuver with cavalry on my right flank. Not a problem I thought, my 2 cav units are out of the way and sufficiently hidden that the AI will pass them by. Lo and behold the AI cavalry kept flanking and flanking until it became clear that they were more interested in my supposedly hidden cavalry units instead of the juicy right flank of my infantry units on the hill. It became really obvious when the enemy cavalry began to hesitate and maneuver back and forth in front of my 'hidden' cav units

As you can imagine I was royally ticked off; what's the use of concealing units for clever ambushes if the AI can detect them so easily?

[Kraxis]

All this said, I think hidden units are too easily discovered.
I mean how easy is it to spot a bunch of soldiers deep in a forest crouching behind trees and making themselves hard to spot? As it is now we can hardly hide anywhere as the units are spotted long before a charge can be done (and thus we can't get the benfit of hidden charge).
How can my men see enemy troops some 200 meters into a forest when they themselves have not yet entered the forest? It is ok with cavalry, horses are hard to hide.

Can you imagine Arminus cursing loudly as the romans kept discovering his troops long before any traps could be sprung? I can.

[Exile]

Is it possible that if a missile unit is set to 'fire at will' and a target is in their range, but concealed, the missile unit will fire on it?

It's not a cheat then, but a bug.

[eXoMagus]

Exile I'm not sure about that, you'd havta try yourself, tho I don't think it'll work unless the concealed enemy has been discovered.

And yes I think that there is a possible bug in this concealment thing with the AI. Many battles I have hid some shock troops or w/e in deep forests, and all those times, and I'm sure ALL those times, the AI simply commanded its forces to walk straight in my concealed units' direction. At first I thought these were just mere coincidences, but then as I fought more and more battles these "coincidences" kept on reoccurring, so I'm thinking that the programmers didn't really incorporate that part into the game very well.

[pdoan8]

Quote[/b] (Exile @ Jan. 22 2003,15:21)]Is it possible that if a missile unit is set to 'fire at will' and a target is in their range, but concealed, the missile unit will fire on it?

It's not a cheat then, but a bug.
I would go with this idea. AI archer was given the order to fire (fire-at-will) at your troop just seconds before you move into the forest. If so, they will move up and start shooting once they are in range. The thing that concern me is that, tree couldn't help much in blocking arrow fire. Still, it depends on how thick the forest is.

[Dr_Who_Regen#4]

Quote[/b] ]AI archer was given the order to fire (fire-at-will) at your troop just seconds before you move into the forest.

I like you theory about firing as my guys moved. Only problem is their archers were well out of range when my guys moved into the forest. I planned my pull back into the forest as my archers used their last arrows to keep their archers a fair distance across the map. I figured they might not notice in the rain that my one unit had snuck back into the forest to hide before the rest of them pulled back.

So unluckily in my case my unit was hidden for at least a minute or two before their archers approached and started firing. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Praylak]

I am becoming more convinced that there is a problem with concealment. I recently experienced some similar event with a unit of hashishins. I had them move towards a group of artillery that was for the most part unguarded by the main body of the AI’s army. Even though I had them stand for some time in a clump of woods, the AI continued to fire on them with some alarming accuracy. Only the small size of the unit allowed them to survive, otherwise them boulders were hitting very close by.

These were hashishins, stealth units, but that doesn’t seem to make any difference. I remember the Ninja’s in Shogun:WE had much more success with stealth than what takes place in this game. What’s the deal?

[eXoMagus]

I wonder how the programmers and game testers could not have noticed this flaw and fixed it in the patch

but oh well there's always a few mistakes here and there in games

[HopAlongBunny]

I have had it work a couple times. However, the only effective instances have been with my main army behind a woods; not in the woods. The AI merrily marches in one direction and I walk through the woods and into the rear. The other case that worked was a hill defence. Spears and arb's on flanks and piles of halberds in center (at top of hill just on the edge of the woods) The AI marched up the mountain side (through the woods) directly into the halberds' charge.

Concealment in woods seems to be unreliable at best; in the instances I have had it work, I've had the entire woods between me and the AI.

[SmokWawelski]

AI cheating: We might be out to something. You have to specify what the cheating is, as designers of Civ3 say.

For example in Civ3 the AI knew the presence and position of every natural resource on the map from the first round, even if it was not discovered yet. Further it knew the geography of the random worlds from the start. That is why the AI would build a city on the other side of the globe, precisly on the oil source that it will use 2000 years later.... In words of the designers though (taken from the official strategy guide), that was not cheatingat all. Oh, small advantage to AI, that's all.

Might it be the same with MTW? BTW, I had the same misfortunes when ambushing.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Kongamato]

In MP I played a game where my enemy's Fanatics unit hid in the woods. My Janissary Infantry was firing at it the whole time during its retreat from the open(no new orders given). They continued to fire on them even after they disappeared. When one of them died the whole unit would be made visible for the duration of the dead man's death animation.
The missile units knew beforehand the men were in there, and it was within their skill to fire at a certain range.

[burma_mtw]

I believe that the "Hidden" symbol is and indication of how close an enemy must be to you for discovery. Even those Muslum Archers that can "hide" anywhere get discovered when somebody walks by. It is just that the enemy has to get closer to the Unit to "discover" it then they do to "discover" non hidden Units.

If you were allowed to truly "hide" a Unit then it would be likely that you could defend any attack simply by "hiding" your General and waiting for time to expire.

I have noticed that sometimes enemy Units will wander in the woods and only attack if they happen to bump into the "hidden" Unit. The exception is Archers which seem to have super vision. Maybe they eat lots of carrots.

Is the AI code available for review?

[Exile]

Well, last night playing the Novs, I set two units of Boyar in the woods far to the left of my main formation. They have the hidden symbol. The AI army marches up and sends one unit of peasents ? towards the 'hidden Boyars'.

Well, the location of the Boyars was way out of the AI's path in attacked my main army and there was quite a distance between those Boyar and the main armies - probably the twice the distance of a longbow shot.

I had hidden units in two other forests on the battlefield. One forest was in the middle of the map and the other was far to the right of my main formation. Those units the AI ignored. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif