Diplomatic AI.

[Akka]

There is some things that, when you are deeply immersed in a game, come and break this feeling and brutally tell you "it's a GAME, kid, you're not REALLY here".

There is more than only one of these things, but the one I'm thinking about is how the AI acts stupidly about war and peace. It's painfully obvious that it's not here to immerse the player, but to challenge him, even if it makes it act completely stupidly.

Here is the background : I was playing France, early. Never betrayed any alliance. Nearly never attacked first. Having big armies of great quality. Always acting with ferocity when betrayed.

And then, after several decades, the situation in Europe is this :

http://zanath.free.fr/MTW/absurde.gif

And ?

You bet it, the Danes break their alliance and attack me. With an incredible army of 350 men.
Needless to say than I need barely to raise a finger, and the next year they're history.

Bah...

[Xer0]

Well in medieval the warlords acted verry stupid sometimes.

[middy]

Yep.. denmark was once very big.. a big chunk of germany,england,estland(danish spelling),letland(danish spelling), lituania,norway and a big chunk of sweden.

We eventually lost it all...and sometimes because of stupid decisions.. Like we supported Napoleon and the english Lord Nelson came and sunk our entire fleet.. so much for our seafaring days..

Funny story there...
English version:
Lord Nelson was blind on one eye. At the battle at copenhagen his flag ship signaled to retreat. One of his officers told him, he took his telescope up to his blind eye and said "I cant see anything, keep fighting" and the english wont.

Danish version:
The same story except that the one who surrendered was copenhagen, and lord Nelson would have said "I cant see anything keep firing"

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

anyway its just a story I get told.. no Historical facts(if there is such a thing)

[Brutal DLX]

Akka,

I'm sorry, but I just don't see your problem here?

The Danish attack cause they thought they can conquer that province (I suppose it was Saxony), they don't take into account what an immense army you have to counter, after one or two turns. For the AI of such a small faction, it is better to go down in a Blaze of Glory than simply watch their treasury go further and further into the red because Denmark can't support all the nice horsie armies of the King and his heirs.
Another point, if you play Total Domination mode, you have to conquer them all anyway. If you are playing GA however, then please limit yourself in your retaliation and keep some factions alive. Because the fewer factions there are, the bigger the remaining ones get, plus it increases the chance the rest will also turn on you and you will have a very bloody campaign on your hands, without any trading partner left....

[Akka]

Quote[/b] (Xer0 @ Jan. 23 2003,16:26)]Well in medieval the warlords acted verry stupid sometimes.

Quote[/b] ]Well in medieval the warlords acted verry stupid sometimes.

Well, sure, but not usually to the point of outright suicide http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It's plainly obvious, sadly, that's because the AI is programmed to prevent you to win, even if it involves acting completely stupidly.


Quote[/b] ]I'm sorry, but I just don't see your problem here?

My problem is that the AI is too much acting as a player in a game and not enough as a king ruling his country. I can't imagine a king that is not completely insane (ok, I did not looked to see if this one got the "odd number of toes" as V&V ^^) starting a hopeless war against a huge empire whose nearly every single garrison could crush his entire kingdom army. It feels so "AI is programmed to attack the player if he goes too well"...


Quote[/b] ]The Danish attack cause they thought they can conquer that province (I suppose it was Saxony), they don't take into account what an immense army you have to counter, after one or two turns.

Yes, that's what I resent. It should be obvious that I will retaliate, and it should be obvious for the Danes that it will be a complete suicide to start a war against me. They should try to get along well with me rather than to anger me. It's just like the Civ3 AI, that see a unprotected small town and seems to forgot that there is a continental-sized high-tech empire that is protecting it...


Quote[/b] ]For the AI of such a small faction, it is better to go down in a Blaze of Glory than simply watch their treasury go further and further into the red because Denmark can't support all the nice horsie armies of the King and his heirs.
Another point, if you play Total Domination mode, you have to conquer them all anyway. If you are playing GA however, then please limit yourself in your retaliation and keep some factions alive. Because the fewer factions there are, the bigger the remaining ones get, plus it increases the chance the rest will also turn on you and you will have a very bloody campaign on your hands, without any trading partner left....

Well, I don't mind having a bloody campaign and long and painful wars. It's part of the settings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

What I just don't like is precisely that I have to treat the other factions by remembering they ARE AI. I would like them to simulate a more "humane" behavior, and not attack me just because "I'm in a good position in the game and then I need some challenge". I don't see why the other nations should turn on me while I'm from a Bloodline that was ALWAYS true to his alliances.

Darn, except for a war against the English (to liberate my homelands) and a Crusade against Egyptians (to be true to my word as a Catholic Christian King fighting for the Holy Church), I NEVER started a war myself. I have no problem to be attacked (hey, after all, there IS warmongers), but to be utterly unable to keep peaceful relationships, especially with small nations whose only hope should precisely to be somehow friend with their huge neighbour...

Bah, all in all, I would like an AI that give me the feeling I'm talking with kings, emperors, princes and so on. That I'm against (or allied with) rulers of country, and not players in a game :/

[Aleborg]

Well, i agree that many times AI is completely stupid. I suppose programers will be improve that.
Also, perhaps they can add some kind of trust alliance like in CivCall to Power and so on. When u are a really allie u cant attack and also u can go on the allie's lands freely, more or less than when u are in a Crusade. Then u can be really sure ur allie wont attack u.
To crush it u need to break first that alliance, but then u have the probe that something strange is happening in the king´s brain of the ex-allie and soon u both will be http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif

Ale

[Akka]

Yes, I would like to see a real difference between an peace treaty and a alliance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

(can anyone tell me the differences between the two, on a gameplay point ? I hardly see any...)

And I would like to have the possibility to give a province to an ally. I wished so bad to give Constantinople back to the Byzantines http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Bob the Insane]

I think the fact that it is a game and the AI players are programmed to win, not come in a graceful second. So even if the only path left to victory is impossible it still has to take it because there is no other option.

The only real question is why the Danish might wait 50 turns in that position before attacking. Maybe its doing stuff with spies and assassins, or perhaps some troop movements somewhere has triggered the AI into action (butterfly flaps its wings in the amazon type thing..)..

[Akka]

Quote[/b] (Bob the Insane @ Jan. 24 2003,07:19)]I think the fact that it is a game and the AI players are programmed to win, not come in a graceful second. So even if the only path left to victory is impossible it still has to take it because there is no other option.

The only real question is why the Danish might wait 50 turns in that position before attacking. Maybe its doing stuff with spies and assassins, or perhaps some troop movements somewhere has triggered the AI into action (butterfly flaps its wings in the amazon type thing..)..

Quote[/b] ]I think the fact that it is a game and the AI players are programmed to win, not come in a graceful second. So even if the only path left to victory is impossible it still has to take it because there is no other option.

And that's EXACTLY what I'm bitching about http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
It just plainly destroys immersion and remind you "it's a game".

[SmokWawelski]

Good points. I too long for a total-immersion with good, working diplomacy. I guess that CA was thinking more about Diablo fans than Churchil fans....
Politics, who cares anyway, huh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif After all, the voting percentage is in lover 30's, mid 30's.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Sometimes, when the AI is playing like that, I think about Diplomacy (the boardgame).
Has any of you played it? I sure guess so.

Had I played Danemark in this situation, I may have done the same; attack the big guy. Game is lost anyway, so why not? If, as king of Danemark, I got some support I may turn the tide and be in good shape. If not, well anyway, I was to die soon...

What is your diplomatic status with other powers? How many allies has Danemark at this time? Can they hope for sea invasion from Egypt?
Maybe this attack did nothing directly, but did you lose allies as a consequence or not?

What I regret is that alliances are not more active. I have yet to see a surprise assault by two allied countries on me in one turn.
Or moving through ally territory. Or allied armies getting coordinated.

Other feature; taking into account player history. In your case, you seem to be trustworthy, so maybe that the Danes could have afford to live in your shadow without fear.
Had you been very agressive and not trustworthy, I would have liked the AI to go more 'preemptive'.

Now think that you are the Danes. You have seen the French growing for 200 years, and you feel like the next on the list. What do you do?

I have seen so many so called hopeless, but still kind of rationnal attack on a Diplomacy table from human, that I don't mind the AI doing this.

Louis,

[Red Harvest]

Problem is that most times, Denmark just sits there and does *nothing* for 100 years or more. Before long all those heirs/royal knights put their treasury into the negative. They don't even make an effort to take Sweden in many campaigns. So if and when you border Denmark later in the game, there is this big pile of royal knights/heirs and little else. Eventually, they get the itch to attack and in most cases it has been bridge attacks. A single unit of arbalests and a few spearman/seargeants takes out the whole lot of them as they are stuck on the bridge and have no armor upgrades. Heirs gone, king gone, party over. The AI squanders piles of royal knights at times. However, on open ground a royal/feudal/gothic knight rush is quite brutal and unless you have a good general your huge army is likely to run like the wind when this happens. It's a bit of shock to read that an ally is trying to hit you with ~250 men vs. 600+ decent/upgraded troops of your own, then you realize that there are 6+ units of royal knights and things are a bit more serious than you at first believed.

[Tyrac]

Akka... all that land and you could not spare the cash to make 10 or so emmisaries to keep an eye on the blank spots? Half the fun of the game is to send emmisary/priest to all provinces so you can see just how shockingly bad the ai is. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif