RTW: African Elephants???

[Hakonarson]

I hope those African elephants in the screen shots aren't going to be in the final game?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Those big-eared beasties are African plains elephants, and were never used militarily - they're too ahrd to train apparently.

I believe only 2 sorts of elephants were used in combat - Indian and African Forest.

The African Forest elephant is extinct, but was considerably smaller than the Indian one and only ever carried 2 men (incl the mahout) with or without a howdah (castle - without it the fighting crew would sit astride).

The two types of elephant famously fought against each other at the battle of Raphiav (Selecids vs Ptolemaic Egypt) in 217BC, where the smaller African ones were at a distinct disadvantage.

Roman and Carthaginian elephants were all African. Egyptian and Macedonian ones were initially Indian ex Alex's conquests but when these died they couldn't get replacements so they had African or none.

Seleucid and Persian ones were always Indian because they could get the stock (AFAIK).

[Hakonarson]

Some more irregularities:

1/ Hoplite sheilds - well I guess they can't be round 'cos of engine restrictions? But that "face" design?? Oh pu-lease

Check out this page for some historical patterns as well as cometns on the use (and otehrwise) of uniform patterns: http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/se/~luv20009/Greek_shield_patterns_1.html

2/ Roman cavalry using Legionary style tower shields - NEVER Even legionary cavalry used flat oval shields

3/ Where are the pila?? We see shots of Romans marching carrying their Gladius' in a silly position out in front of them...but not with the Pila that was actualy their initial weapon??

4/ Why oh why is there a Gladiator in there (running away from a vastly oversize elephant&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif?? Even when the gladiators revolted they threw away their gladatorial equipment as a sign of their freedom, while gladiators enrolled in the regular army in 69AD fought with standard legionary equipment

other than that it all looks absolutely lovely & I can't wait http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[serg]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Jan. 16 2003,15:13)]4/ Why oh why is there a Gladiator in there (running away from a vastly oversize elephant&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif?? Even when the gladiators revolted they threw away their gladatorial equipment as a sign of their freedom, while gladiators enrolled in the regular army in 69AD fought with standard legionary equipment
During Spartac war at least some gladiators were using galdiator's swords insteard of gladias (Spartac himsef was -on the freske in Pompeii) but of cause they never fought elefants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Foreign Devil]

Maybe they already threw thier Pila. They only carried two of them, I believe. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[w00tage]

In the end they probably will only get gladius and we will get a cheesy excuse from ca like 'engine restrictions'

otherwise roll on RTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Acronym]

Minute details like a breed of elephants or certain type of sword seem very irrelevent. As long as they mostly get it right, like how different armies fought, equipment used(maybe not 100% accurate but as long as it's close), diplomacy, and online issues, then I'll be happy.

C'mon, no one can make a perfect game, and it doesn't have to be 100% historically accurate as long as it's fun. Besides we want the game out this year, what we don't want is another team fortress 2 or duke nukem forever http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Foreign Devil]

The Pila, which for those who don't know, is a javelin-type throwing weapon, was important to the romans. And how cool would it be to see your legionnairs (sp?) throw thier Pila before closing for hand to hand combat?

That said, I will buy and love this game as soon as I can. Screenshots I must have more to hold me until next year.... *zombie demeanor*.....

[Jacque Schtrapp]

LOL an RTW flame thread pre-release even There is just no pleasing some people. I personally will save any rants and raves until I have actually had the opportunity to play the game. Seems silly blasting it with no more info than a few screenies to go by.

[Hakonarson]

no, no Jacque......blasting the game before it exists is an absolute necessity - call it pre-release quality control http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Breed of elephant is not a minor concern any more than the weapons carried by troops are a minor concern - the elephant itself was a weapon, and the 2 differnt breeds used could carry different numbers of fighting troops.

Indian elephants in "Greek" service (includign teh successors) carried up to 4 fighting men, while the African ones carried only 1 - this is quite a major difference.

Consider that many of those fighting men would be archers on the Indian elepahnt whereas the African one was usually equipped with a single pikeman - the function of the pike was to protect the elephant from close in attackers - it enabled teh crewman to reach down to their level. Indian elephants also carried a pikeman (usually), but their archers enabled them to "reach out and touch" many more enemy.

The differences are like between a horse archer and a javelin thrower - both ride a horse, but they don't do the same thing

as an aside - Burmese elephants carried up to 6 fighting crew sitting 3 to a side and armed with javelins and bows. Indian elephants in Indian service without howdahs carried 2-3 fighting crew sitting astride also armed with javelins and bows.

It's not the Gladiator's sword that I mind so muchas that helmet

And yuo CANNOT do Legionaries without Pila http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

I suspect they'll jsut give tehm a high "charge factor" if they don't include the Pila.

Ideally they WOULD have each soldier carying just 2, and when they were used up the combat capacity of the unit would be suitably decreased

[Theodoret]

The idea that regular African elephants are impossible to train is a myth. The British trained African elephants when they were in Africa, for use in construction projects, however the scheme was abandoned after it was pointed out that it would be cheaper to simply hire more men. There is nothing about African elephants which makes them fundamentally untrainable, its more a matter of cost in terms of food and labour of using them (bear in mind that African elephants are bigger than their Indian relatives and thus more expensive to feed). The Carthaginians must have felt that the cost of keeping such animals was worthwhile, whilst other cultures chose to spend their resources on something else. I suppose the reason the Macedonians used Indian rather than African elephants is that they bought the animals from Persia, which had close links with a number of Indian rulers.

[Knight_Yellow]

well heres my idea u would be sacraficing gameplay if u included all of the historical aspects i only hope that the game they end up with has a good deal of replayability value.

[Acronym]

Well, if CA is going to get everything right, I think that different cultures should speak in different languages, leaving it to the player to decipher. And Romans should be shorter in height than the celts(approximately 4-6" or I won't buy the game), and give the celts blond hair and make them fight naked. And restrict the camera view to the general's eye so we can't see a big epic battle from a good angle, after all generals back then weren't 100ft tall. Also CA should research precipation fall during the roman empire so each day has the same amount of rain as there was.

One more small request CA: Hire a team of archeologists and historians so everything is excactly right

had to say it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Hakonarson]

Quote[/b] (Theodoret @ Jan. 16 2003,17:54)]The idea that regular African elephants are impossible to train is a myth. The British trained African elephants when they were in Africa, for use in construction projects, however the scheme was abandoned after it was pointed out that it would be cheaper to simply hire more men. There is nothing about African elephants which makes them fundamentally untrainable, its more a matter of cost in terms of food and labour of using them (bear in mind that African elephants are bigger than their Indian relatives and thus more expensive to feed). The Carthaginians must have felt that the cost of keeping such animals was worthwhile, whilst other cultures chose to spend their resources on something else. I suppose the reason the Macedonians used Indian rather than African elephants is that they bought the animals from Persia, which had close links with a number of Indian rulers.
OK - so African elephants can be trained - however what we think of as African elephants these days were NIOT trained in ancient times so it's a moot point.

The Elephants used by Hannibal were a now extinct species that probably came from Europe - the European elephant is much smaller than both the Afican and Indian.

This species is known by various names, including the African Forest Elephant, the Atlas Elephant and the North African Elephant.

The latin name is Loxodonta africana cyclotis, viz Elephas maximus for the Indian, and Loxodonta africana for the African.

The species was certainly extinct by the 7th century AD, and possibly as early as the 2nd.

Acronym - I'd suggest hiring a BETTER tam of historians than they didfor MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[deejayvee]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Jan. 16 2003,17:39)]And yuo CANNOT do Legionaries without Pila http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

I suspect they'll jsut give tehm a high "charge factor" if they don't include the Pila.

Ideally they WOULD have each soldier carying just 2, and when they were used up the combat capacity of the unit would be suitably decreased
I really don't care either way with your other points, tbh, but this one I strongly agree with. The Legionaries need to have Pila

[Knight_Yellow]

acronym shutup

if this game is half as acurate as u want geuss how many copies will get sold..... 1


I swear if ca even try to make the only veiw point ur gens actual view i will not buy the game and many others wont too.

i dont even see the point in doing that other than a visual treat, and if ur gonna say "it would be more acurate" it wouldnt since commanders only game basic pre battle orders (they didnt have mobile phones back then).

i know that the fps gens veiw will be included but it wont be the main or the only view cos that would be completely f*****g gay.

plus u couldnt command ur troops from that dumbass view point anyway since u wouldnt be able to select them cos of the confusion. its alrdy hard enough to command ur men without that completely dumbass view.

ahh mutch better, i may have over killed his idea but it needed to be done

[Foreign Devil]

I'm not asking for complete and total historical accuracy. But if the Romans dont get to use Pilas, then they shouldn't get to use swords or sheilds, either. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

[Efrem Da King]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif Yellow acronym is clearly joking http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif he is being sarcastic at how far you could go with all this historical accuracy stuff.
I agree tho pila should be in, but keep in mind they were ment to screw up shields not kill people and I hope this is represented http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But I don't CARE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hakonarson]

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Jan. 16 2003,21:23)]acronym shutup

if this game is half as acurate as u want geuss how many copies will get sold..... 1
Bollocks - it'll be at least 2 'cos I'll get one too

See - already the market's doubled http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Emp. Conralius]

hmmmm... I just read the whole thread, seems pretty ridiculous to me. But that's my opinion, I could be wrong... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Acronym]

acronym shutup

if this game is half as acurate as u want geuss how many copies will get sold..... 1


sorry Knight_Yellow, I've seem to misplaced my sarcasm key, I figured forum dwellers can detect it but I guess not http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Anyways, I posted that because different breeds of elephants are pretty irrelevant as far as gameplay, unless you were to have elephants that carry different number of soldiers, which I guess *might* improve things a little, but not really considering how revolutionary they claim this game will be.

Oh yeah, pila MUST BE INCLUDED. If we are gonna have some historical accuracy at all, at least give the different cultures their fighting techniques. Romans must have pila, greeks must charge en mass with pikes, and gauls must be more dissorderly than romans(ever heard of gauls or celts having centuries and maniples?)

[Gaius Julius]

Gentlemen:

Don't you think we should at least wait for the beta/demo, before ranting/raving about historical inaccuracies; real or imagined?

I know we all want a certain unit to have this colour tunic, that design on it's shield.
In the end if everything is 100% historically accurate, yet the gameplay is horrible, then it will all be in vain.

Myself, I'm hoping the developers can be as historically accurate as possible; but in the end, I want a great game that's fun to play.
Isn't that what it's all about? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Acronym]

Don't you think we should at least wait for the beta/demo, before ranting/raving about historical inaccuracies; real or imagined?

Yes and no. Maybe the guys at CA will read these posts and get ideas, but it is pretty silly to base thse facts on pre-beta screens. I personally don't mind complaining about what looks to be roman's with no pila(yet)

Myself, I'm hoping the developers can be as historically accurate as possible; but in the end, I want a great game that's fun to play.
Isn't that what it's all about?

no http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Sandy-San]

horny vikings, cowardly gladiators, african instead of the european swallow, romans with the wrong type of belt buckle... whatever next? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

thing is, I'd believe that the artwork won't reflect what CA will put in the final game, if they hadn't done it already with the Knights Templar and lances...

[lafayette]

The problem with all this historical knowledge is that they are mostly theories. Nobody exactly knows how the Romans fought. There are many theories.

I agree that gameplay is the most important and it must feel like a Roman game. But, when it comes to designing the men and the intro there is ofcourse much more possible to become historically correct.

[Efrem Da King]

[QUOTE]The problem with all this historical knowledge is that they are mostly theories. Nobody exactly knows how the Romans fought. There are many theories.
[QUOTE]
Ahh but we have books don't we, and letters and pictures on vases its more than just a "theory."
Though it could be wrong (yeah right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ) just like any well known historical fact could be wrong (horns on viking helmets for example) but i have not heard any opposing thoughts. If u have any i would love to read them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[LovelyHaji]

Are these extinct elephants anything like the recently discovered Congo elephants? THey're quite dinky. I doubt they could accomodate more than one rider.

[Cardinal]

Now this has been the most interesting, discussion I have read in a long time.....long, long time. I strongly agree with Hakonarson on every accout (liked your little lecture on elephants). Elephant unit should be split up to match the repective faction. This will make game play much more interesting. One thing I thought about though is that (well I know for a fact this happened to the Indians) elephants were notoriously bad in combat. You might get the initial psychological advantage of showing off the beasties, but if one of the elephants paniced, it did not know friend from foe, and just picked its own route. Iamgine routing elephant units trampling down everything in sight, friend and foe. Now that adds a totally new aspect to the game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Acronym]

lol I can see it now. Playing online against an army half of elephants. Shoot all my slingers and javalins at the beasts while sticking them with sarissas, then they turn around and destroy the enemy army for me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

If the panick factor for elephants is in the game, I think many are going to be hesitant to use them.

[Devastatin Dave]

Im with Acronym and Jacque on this, its going to be a balst no matter how big the elephants ears are http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Historical accuracy is great, but complete accuracy is not needed. Besides, they still haven't sent out a patch on my "lesbian princesses", so I have a REAL reason to complain http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Kongamato]

Were elephants ever used in urban warfare? Just imagine one of the beasts taking up an entire alleyway charging at you...

[Acronym]

Hehe I never though of that, since we can sack cities maybe the elephants would prove quite useful. Or use them as siege weapons.

Think I can give orders to have an elephant run straight into a wall?

[Kongamato]

On the subject of urban warfare, I think CA is going to use tried-and-true sources for their urban combat AI.

http://a1388.g.akamaitech.net/7/1388/51/d95a7740361400/www.apple.com/education/LTReview/spring99/simulation/images/pacman.gif

[Acronym]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif LoL good one

[scsscsfanfan]

sorry to be off topic but I couldn't be helped.

Acronym, is that Presitant Bush's picture real?

[Acronym]

I sure hope not, or our country is in real trouble

[Efrem Da King]

Maybe he whats to be seen as a "nelsoneqse" (sp?) figure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Kraellin]

ok, i had a talk with the guys at CA and here are the new amended elephants

http://home.domaindlx.com/takiyama/kraellin/pink_elephant_flying_md_clr.gif

K.

[Dr_Who]

I hope you get ingame messages like, "your fellow Romans are angry at you, you got stabbed in bed." or "your announced heir wants to be the emperor now, watch what you eat." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Now that would be great

[LordKevinV]

wow the game is around a year away and you are commenting about how innacurate the trailer is. the wrong kind of elephant? isnt that going a bit too far? the wrong kind of shield and the wrong kind of sword? i dunnmo maybe im drunk but that just sounds like nonsense to me.

[Hakonarson]

Yeah you're just drunk - no-one complained about the wrong type of sword http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

What better time to point out inaccuracies than early enough in the scheme of things to get them fixed??

Yes elephants were used in urban warfare - there are accounts of them being used to batter down gates.

[Mr Frost]

Apparantly , Viking helmets never had horns , but some featured swept back wings , however some Celtic helmets had horns though if they were intended for combat or merely some sort of cerimony I cannot say .

The Elephants Hanibal crossed the Alps with were almost certainly the smaller {now extinct} African variety , but can we be absolutely certain Carthage never used the larger Plains Elephant in their African territories {they would have balked at transporting so much more massive and perhaps boisterous beasts by ship and that's the only viable way they could have got them into Europe} . Bare in mind that documents can become lost and artists take liberties . The concept that Longbows came from Wales seems to stem from a misstranslation of but one document Yet most people {including many academics} still concider it obvious fact . I would find it odd if no culture in the Ancient/Classical world chose to train and use the largest and most powerful Elephant there was when we know for certain they can be well trained and cooperative ; where do you think most Plains Elephants in movies come from ? They are often trained animals like the charging bull elephant in "Hearts of Darkness" {that's got to be the source of a cool pick-up line for his owner/trainer :"hey babey , want to come to my place for dinner and meet my elephant ?" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif} .

[Kraxis]

Ok, I remembered Captain Fishpants answering a post in a thread where people also complained, so I looked it up.


Quote[/b] ]Quote (serg @ Jan. 16 2003,13:59)
That is exactily what I was afraid of Legioners without pilums The main reason I wanted to play Romans was because legioners were both mlee and missile troops, without pilums they are common heavy infanty
Archers in roman troops ??? Who are they ??? Romans (at least western) didn't use bows, though they may had allied archers...And what the hell they are forming trutle for ? No one shooting at them...

Oh ye of little faith

Just because you didn't see something in the very first material released, don't be too sure that it isn't in there And just because you did see something: remember that this is a taster of the kind of action that the game includes for non-Roman experts too.

We know that Roman legionaires had pila to throw at the enemy before they closed with the sword. It's not in the movie, that's all. And the testudo is there precisely because it looks cool and shows what the game engine can do. And it impresses the hell out of me, I can tell you.

I don't think anyone is going to be disappointed come release...

MikeB ~ CA


So, obviously since they know the legionnarires had pila, we shouldn't get all worried.

[jodmeister]

Oh yes.....Big effalumps there is......just read the eight page review in PC Gamer...(UK).....with lots of pics and an included FMV file on disc.
Apparantly you can fire flaming pigs at the Big effalumps to scare the crap outa them.
Also if the Big effalumps are wounded they charge amongst yur own troops trampling them.........

JOD. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Knight_Yellow]

im just curious he didnt say u get burning pigs he just said that would scare them.

ill be dissapointed if there r burning pigs since they seem to not fit in a serious game.

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Jan. 21 2003,23:19)]im just curious he didnt say u get burning pigs he just said that would scare them.

ill be dissapointed if there r burning pigs since they seem to not fit in a serious game.
Well burning pigs let loose to scare elephants did happen so why should it not be used in a serious game?

CBR

[Hakonarson]

Somebody DID actually used burning pigs as an anti-elephant weapon - one of het Greek successor states maybe??

They coated the rear half of the unfortunate animals in tar and set fire to them in front of the hefelumps - the squels and flames were supposed to firghten the elephants but I can imagine the pigs might not've necessarily only run in any ione particualr direction so it seems a little...um...random asa weapon

I can probably find out more details if anyone is REALLY intersted

[rasoforos]

if the game is good and there is techical support and patches when needed i wont even look at the size of the elephant's ears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kraxis]

About the pigs:

You could have a very brave individual run in between the elephants and set fire to the pig there... running anywhere would not matter then.

Or if the pigburners was lined up like a phlanx the pigs could not really run back into their lines that easily and would most likely take a more confrontational route towards the elephants.

[CBR]

Posted a link about it in the Entrance Hall a few weeks back.. but here it is again.


http://www.clickfire.com/viewpoints/articles/political/elephants.php

"The most frequently told tale concerning pigs as a counter weapon to elephants may be represented by Aelian and Polyaenus: when Antigonas Gonatas was besieging Megara, the Megarians succeeded in routing the besiegers’ elephants by dousing pigs in oil and igniting them and then turning them loose against the elephants. One might object that this is hardly a fair test of the elephant’s reaction to pigs per se; but both authors specifically state that the beasts were startled by the squeal rather than by the fire. The flames were simply a means of guaranteeing a satisfactory squeal"

CBR

[Kraellin]

rofl. this thread just continues to amaze me and be a constatnt source of humor. lol. next thing you know, there'll be duck billed platapus's to put out the flaming pigs so as not to scare the elephants. rofl.

just give me cows in a catapult and i'll be happy ;)

K.

[CBR]

Lol nah give me catapults and some sheep... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

CBR

[Hakonarson]

I don't want to know what's going to happen to the sheep http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[deejayvee]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Jan. 21 2003,19:32)]I don't want to know what's going to happen to the sheep http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Don't worry Hark, there's still plenty more for you Kiwi's http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Hakonarson]

Of course there will be Dee - there's 2 or 3 times as many sheep in Aussie as there are in NZ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[deejayvee]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Jan. 21 2003,21:18)]Of course there will be Dee - there's 2 or 3 times as many sheep in Aussie as there are in NZ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Once perhaps... but the drought has probably changed that.

[Acronym]

It would be nice to prep the battlefield with traps if you're the defender.

[PSYCHO]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Jan. 21 2003,21:18)]Of course there will be Dee - there's 2 or 3 times as many sheep in Aussie as there are in NZ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif ..................





So that's why they all come here Not getting any 'quality time' at home http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Cheers

[The Marcher Lord]

Anyway...to get back to the point of this thread...the African Forest elephant was only 2.5m high and not capable of carrying the large armed turrets that we see in the screenshots available so far. For the Carthaginians it was the elephant itself that was being used as the weapon, not the guys on top of it. There are Punic silver coins which show the Carthaginian elephant being ridden bareback by a cloaked rider who straddles the neck and carries a stick held out over the elephants head. This stick could either be a means of directing the animal, or else represents the hammer and spike which were used to kill the animal if control was lost. Hannibal relied on there being plenty of tribes and Romans who had not seen an elephant and would therefore be terrified by it plodding towards them. Hannibal took 34 to Italy, but only 7 survived the Alps crossing - hardly a formidable weapon These 7 elephants were only used once at the battle of the Trebia in 218 BC and were of little use as the Roman cavalry were already heavily outnumbered. It wasn't until 215 BC that Hannibal received more elephants. At Zama Hannibal had 80 elephants, but they were all untrained recent acquisitions and they did more damage to the Carthaginians than the Romans in that battle.

It is possible that Hannibal had some Indian elephants. Ptolemy II of Egypt had access to a stable of Indian elephants and helped Carthage to finance the first Punic war. It seems quite likely that Ptolemy would have supplied Indian elephants and that by the time Hannibal invaded Italy the Carthaginians had a decent stable of Indian elephants of their own. The Indian elephants would have been capable of carrying a turret on their backs.

[Sephiroth]

Not many people i think are getting Hakonarson's very reasonable point about the Pila.It was a truly revolutionary weapon.Designed by General Marius prior to the Teutonic and cambronic invasions of N.Italy, it was a revolutionary design in that like formula 1 cars, it was designed to break on impact and hence free up the throwers arm.the top half of the javelin would remain imbedded in the unfortunate recipient while the bottom half would be discarded....and secondly..ballistas better come in groups of ten and be very f**king effective..want to scewer me some barbarians

[Hakonarson]

Actually Hannibal's elephants at Trebia were very effective indeed

Initially they were discomforted by the javelins of the Roman light troops, but he withdrew them and sent them against the Cenomani - the Gallic allies fighting with the romans where they did great damage.

Sephiroph - Marius refined the pila, but he didn't invent it.

It was used by Etruscans before the Romans adopted it - indeed its presence in their army is probably due to Roman soldiers serving in the Etruscan army before Rome was independant - 5-600BC-ish perhaps.

[The Marcher Lord]

Actually Hannibal's elephants at Trebia were very effective indeed

Agreed - they did help, in part, to gain the overall victory, but it was the driving off of the Roman cavalry, Mago's ambush, and the allied and Carthaginian infantry that really won the day. The elephants did most of their damage when the Roman force was already in retreat.

[Hakonarson]

A weapon system doesntt have to be the "battle winner" to be effective, and even in victory there is often room for defeat.

So while it's true that Mago's ambush won the battle, the Gauls had not been defeated until the elephants attacked them, and I think it's a little silly to say that that means they were not effective.

[The Marcher Lord]

Well I dont recall saying anything 'silly' above, just engaging in some interesting debate on the effectiveness, or otherwise, of Hannibals elephants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hakonarson]

I didn't say that you did say that anything was silly

I said your argument was silly. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Zauba'a]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif


Hakonarson, why don't you call the Whaaaaaaaambulance?


You're basing ALL of your assumptions on nine inconclusive pictures. Just stop and think about a couple things.

- In the Legionnaire picture, you can only see a couple yards infront of the soldiers. Who knows, maybe they've already thrown their pilums and the enemy is just out of our view?

- Maybe that gladiator is just a guy named SPARTACUS whose armies we get to command in a historical campaign? I don't know, and more importantly, NEITHER DO YOU.

- Maybe the cavalry with the tower shields are auxillery cavalry. Not Roman, but imported from far away provinces that don't find it so offensive to take a tower shield into battle.

- The elephants don't matter. They don't. They don't. They don't. Shut up with the elephants. You know why they don't matter? Because once this game comes out, you're going to buy it and play like the rest of us, and when you are rejoicing in the glorious, virtual Roman battles, you won't even notice the elephants' god damn ears.

All I want from this game is for it to stretch into the Late Late Roman era, so I can still play with my preeeeeeecious Kataphracts.

GOOD NIGHT http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif

[The Marcher Lord]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif The argument was fine and I stand by it - i'm bored with this thread now - goodbye http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Hakonarson]

Quote[/b] (Zauba'a @ Jan. 23 2003,23:48)]You're basing ALL of your assumptions on nine inconclusive pictures. Just stop and think about a couple things.
Oh dear - well perhaps that's why I said "I hope....", and "I wonder where......" - ie I didn't make assuptions - I asked questions

Given that those 9 shots aer all the evidence there was at the time it's not at all unreasonable to use them as teh basis for questions

Oh and the gladiators threw away their gladiatorial equipment when they revolted - yay even and especially Spartacus.

And auxiliary cavalry didn't use tower shields either - no cavalry did

If you actually read what I posted then you wouldn't have bothered with you inane reply.

Of course I'll buy it - but I dont' see why I shouldn't want it to be more accurate Heck have a look at htis board and the complaints about innacuracies in MTW, and previously about innacuaracies in STW - the time to get inaccuracies fixed is befoer the game comes out, not after it's published and in the hands of thousands

sheesh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Marcher - you are perfectly free to stand by your silly argument - I never said otherwise.

Have a nice day guys

[Zauba'a]

Sorry, but I don't see your logic here. You say it IS reasonable to base assumptions on just 9 screenshots? I don't really get that. If I over-reacted, then sorry, but so did you in your first post, so don't start playing innocent.

[Hakonarson]

I didn't make assumptions - I asked questions - like "Where are the pila?"

there's no assumption there, and a erasonable answer would be "they've thrown them and are charging with sword" - but no such answer was forthcoming.

for example I didn't rant and rave that "Elephants do matter, they do, they do, they do" - I mentioned that there were 2 types of elephant used in ancient times, and that he African Plains elephant wasn't one of them and I HOPED they weren't the ones that we re going to be in the game.

now what's unreasonable about either of those or any of the other statements I made??

You want to play with kataphracts - well how would you feel if your cataphracts were depicted as equites and weren't all that different from them because after all cavalry is cavalry right?

Well it's the same thing - where there's a real, historical prototype and/or difference then IMO it (the prototype or the difference) would be much nicer if represented accurately.