Charge or depend?

[kaasbris]

Expert, High, HRE
in Prussia

With 900 forces of 1 Feudal knights(0 command general), 3 archers, 3 spearmen, 5 urban militia, I advanced into reble province of Prussia, where 6 units were defending: 1 Archer(4 command general), 1 feudal knights, 1 hobilars, 1 horse archers, 1 spearmen, 1 woodmen.

I thought it wouldn't be easy, but actually I've never lost a battle to rogues so far, that presumed to be another walk over. It wasn't.

When I marched upto their position, rebel cavalries and spearmen charged in front of my frontal speanmen units. There I had to wonder again if I have to let my spearmen charge or just sit down to depfend.

Against cavalry, my experience tells it's better to defend, but I always curious about against other charging foot units.

My frontal spearmen all routed even against speanmen.
That must be why my general had 0 command.

Anyone can tell me what should I do against charging foot units?

[ToranagaSama]

There really isn't much to say except:

1) DO NOT ATTACK WITH ZERO COMMAND GENERALS

Frankly, few tactics can overcome this; and there's little reason to do so, that is attack.

2) There may be times when your FORCED to defend. Again, frankly, to win with a Zero command general requires complete comand of battlefield tactics, movement, control and understanding of the game.

11 Units, 0 command vs. 6 Units, 4 command is a loser.

My advice is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

[kaasbris]

Thanks for reply, Toranaga Sama.
Reason why I began with 0 command was I wanted real challenge

Anyway, there was at least one good point having 0 command:
My force was not that affected even when he died http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Oh, well, but still I am curious about charge or defence for my spears. Which is more effective?

[David]

Depends on it. Some spearmen like Muhawid (or something) have irresistable charge, then charge. I usually charge anyway. Having your units watch their friends being butchered is not really... friendly. Just put your spearman in attack freely (instead of hold formation), works better when charging.

[Exile]

most spear units have a decent charge. I read a recent post from one of the developers here where they said (more or less) to make sure than the unit is well formed when you charge. It is preferential to turn the unit and then charge once they're formed up rather than to charge directly in a way which the spearmen unit is not facing. Apparently the cohesion of the unit has a significant impact on the rank bonus.

[LadyAnn]

Always charge spears back when other units attack your spears. Spears all have +5 charge bonus minimum, some have even +7 or +8 (Muwahid for example). Not charging back is a waste and I call it a crime. This doesn't mean you have the license to chase. Only charge when the melee is inevitable.

Also, I would avoid putting spears on engage at will when charging. I would switch to engage at will AFTER the charge if I see I am winning (opponent is cav or opponent is thin down so I have numerical advantage). Reason is it is much harder to switch from engage at will to hold formation without losing combat momentum.

Annie

[kaasbris]

Thanx. now I am always charging instead of waiting.
But still seem suffer much as my generals have so low command.

HRE went through series of war against Italians at Provence and Tyrol.

Expert, Hard, HRE
in Provence

This time HRE army was leaded by crown prince Otto (2 command, royal knights) with 3 spears, 1 feudal knights, 1 feudal men-at-arms, 2 militia sergents, 3 crossbows against crack Italian troops of 2 royal knights (6 command), 2 Italian infantry, 2 crossbows, 2 peasants, and some more.

HRE army was stationed on the top of hill, whose wings are covered with thick forest, right of which I put a militia for ambush.

To my surprise, Italian forces chose their way the most hardest one: they advanced through left forest upto hill
Italian Royal knights leaded way quite ahead from main body, so that I was forced to engage them in left forest, as once they through, I lose my height advantage.

I sent in a men-at-arm and a militia to deal with knights in forest, which didn't go well and took too much time, as Italian main body arrived there. Two foot units finally routed with half strengh remained, but almost killed off royal knights but one.

Enemy chased up routing soldiers, which I thought best chance to launch all-out-charge of my spears, then proceeded. It was not bad, but more enemy was comming. Then I come to think out charge "back and forth". Oh, but when I tried to make my spears back while other spear hold enemy, they just didn't obey my order I tried with one-click, then double-click on behind unit, but they just kept fighting.

I didn't dare to make them rout intentionally as it could make them rout for good at such condition. Well, but they routed when other Italian units arrived anyway.

Question is: Is it possible to let spears back a bit and charge again? If so, how can I perform it best during melee?

Prince Otto also took part in charge, which costed his life http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif

[Mr Frost]

Quote[/b] (kaasbris @ Jan. 23 2003,21:06)]Question is: Is it possible to let spears back a bit and charge again? If so, how can I perform it best during melee?
Control W when they wont dissengage and you might have to do it a few times . Try to avoid rapidly clicking them out of there as they might take that as "constant retreat" and get a moral penalty "dismayed by constant retreat" and unless those spears are way faster than their opponents {like Muwahid verses Halberds or reasonably fresh spears Vs exhausted opponents} then make sure the enemy unit is occupied with someone else or they will simply follow your spears and when you try to attack your spears might suffer flanking penalties {attacking units move at charge speed , which is how they can catch your unit running from it unless you have them in Scirmish mode ... then they run "very quickly" which seems to be charge speed} . Not to mention that if they follow you as mentioned you won't get the charge bonus at all , but some of them might .

Also : Clicking them to scirmish mode , then when they are far enough out {you should have some distance to get the bonus} stop them , let them form up {you need that to get the best out of them} and then charge {attack at will} them in again and repeat as neccessary might work .

Don't forget , on Expert the badguys get a moral bonus {which feels a bit cheesy which is why I don't play easy , hard nor expert ... I prefer my cheese on toast rather than on my computer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif}

[LadyAnn]

Can spear have option to skirmish? Don't seem to work for me.

"Backspace" could be useful to cancel previous orders. If you already order your troops to charge, and now click on another position, the charge still take precedence. That's why your spears keep in fighting.

Ctrl-W (withdraw the unit) may work, but am always skitish of ordering a withdraw to fighting troops.

Annie

[cugel]

"Don't forget , on Expert the badguys get a moral bonus {which feels a bit cheesy which is why I don't play easy , hard nor expert ... I prefer my cheese on toast rather than on my computer }"

IMO the computer needs every advantage it can get It doesn't fight too well enough even with the morale bonus, and you would take it away by fighting on medium? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Obviously, that heavy cavalry I have formed up in wedges on the flank of their line isn't there for show But try to tell the AI that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Michael the Great]

I've had pikemen being flanked,dieing at a faster rate than gallows o higland clansmen tackling cavalry....

[kaasbris]

Quote[/b] (Mr Frost @ Jan. 23 2003,23:43)]
Control W when they wont dissengage and you might have to do it a few times .[/QUOTE]
Thanx Mr Frost.
I soon found this is one of most useful hot keys, even it didn't work quite well, as LadyAnn addressed. I use Ctrl+W for instant draw back of my too advanced troops, which works excellent.

All spears seem works best when I let them defend. Yeah, they are so weak when flanked, and during attack their flanks are always exposed widely as they are 100 men force. Or is it just because they are equiped with spear? maybe.

Through games, I got to love spears. They look so weak at statistics' number. However, they weren't. With many bonus (i.e. rank, height, vs Cavalry), most victories were decided on how well use them.

[Mr Frost]

Quote[/b] (kaasbris @ Jan. 26 2003,10:28)]
Quote[/b] (Mr Frost @ Jan. 23 2003,23:43)]
Control W when they wont dissengage and you might have to do it a few times .
Thanx Mr Frost.
I soon found this is one of most useful hot keys, even it didn't work quite well, as LadyAnn addressed. I use Ctrl+W for instant draw back of my too advanced troops, which works excellent.


Through games, I got to love spears. They look so weak at statistics' number. However, they weren't. With many bonus (i.e. rank, height, vs Cavalry), most victories were decided on how well use them.


[/quote]
No worries mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif glad to help .

A nice eye-opener for me was when I found Scaracen Infantry {both the "stock standard" and my own slight mod of them} could beat Feudal Men at Arms quite handily in a fair head-to-head fight . I use the second last map {there's 370 of them so #369} in Custom Games {Steppeland6 I think it's called -I'm dyslexic , so I remember it more by the steps I take to get there than by name} because it is flat and featureless to provide as neutral a testing ground {for 1 unit Vs 1 unit tests} as possible .
I find it neccessary as the basic stats are only part of how well a unit fights {those stats in crusader build11.txt such as reinforcement ( 1) , Hold_Terrain (2) , Assault_Cover_Castle_Attack(3) have an effect just to begin with} .

Cugel : you can mod so the AI gets some useful help in building better units . The part of a unit in crusaders_unit_production 11.txt that begins with "POVERTY_STRICKEN(number), DESPARATE_DEFENSE(number), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(number)... is what effects the A.I.s' descision to build what units in which culture or which situation ie : DESPARATE_DEFENSE(number) when their backs are to the wall , POVERTY_STRICKEN(number) when their skint , CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST if they are Catholic Expansionists {look in crusader 13.txt , it tells you there} . By altering these you can influence the A.I. {and in given factions and situations} in it's choice of unit production . In build13.txt you can do the same with Building Production {perhaps you want the Moslims to use more Jihads ? up the number for Jihad -towards the bottom of the 11.txt file- and the building leading up to and including Ribat in the 13.txt file and VIOLA They will make more Jihads so they can throw lots of Khwarazamaims , Nizaris , Napthas etc at your crusades and fight them with crusades for the challange . Still want more : Mod Napthathrowers to be 60 man units -they are the 32nd unit down the list and the unit strength in me is the 6th number after the word INFANTRY- and Hashishin to be 40 man units -112 down the list thus near the bottom and cost is the first number after the word INFANTRY ; I made Napthas 1000 Florins and Hashishin 2500 , but you could charge the A.I. 1 florin each if you wanted to http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif}

[Mr Frost]

Should have mentioned {re: answer to Cugel with examples of germane modding suggestions} : IF YOU MOD , BACK UP FIRST . http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Cheers .

[el_slapper]

Well, I don't back-up anymore. My game is screwed? I reinstall the patch

Notice that it will be a pain once Viking will be installed, so I'll back-up again then.