View Full Version : Arbalests vs Pavise Arbalests
war_blah
01-08-2003, 21:18
I remember a post while back talk about the difference between them. And most ppl agree that it's must better to build Pavise Arbalests because they all cost the same(also support cost is same) which PA has the extra missile protection.
Seems after the patch the building valour bonus only apply to the units which does not requires a Mastery building. So if you have a Master Bowyer, then your Arbalests/Tucomen/Archers/Longbow/etc will get a +1 valour bonus, but since PA is on top of the food chain, it will not get the bonus(Same with Janissary Archers). +1 valour can make a big difference on archer's ability.
kaasbris
01-08-2003, 22:15
I see I was curious why my crossbows gets +1 valor while Pavise Arbalests +0. Sad that some building fuction is still vague, like top upgraded building of spears, swords, horse, etc...
Thanks for posting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I think regular arbalests move much faster than pavise arbalests, so they're more useful in a missile first "three line" attack but less worthwhile in defence.
I wonder why they need a master bowyer to make big shields? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
Quote[/b] ]I wonder why they need a master bowyer to make big shields?
I wonder why too. In any case, they have a charge/walk/run of 4/8/9 compared to 6/10/11 of regular infantry which includes arbalesters and most archers.
Does anybody know which unit gains bonuses in what building? The current crusader.txt has blanks under dojo advantage id.
No idea really, but if you go for the what feels right you often hit the right spot. But such units as Byzantine Cavalry can be a sore choice...
But 1 Valour makes so little of a difference in ranged combat that it is not worth it to lose that many more Arbs. But it is a very nice addition as you don't have to fear enemy attacks on them as much.
I agree that Arbs are the attackers and the Pavs are the defenders (can't really pull out of fire when defending).
Divine Wind
01-09-2003, 15:37
As jampe said the arbs move so much faster than pavise arbs. So its easier 2 pull them back if they are ever threatened and makes them a good flanking unit once the arrows have all been spent. The pavise are just 2 slow for me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Sjakihata
01-09-2003, 17:06
Gah, hate the pavise.
Missile vs. missile can drag on forever, and missile vs. missile is not what I want
Often you are "forced" to chose them, but I try with alternatice solutions.
Pavise is good if u r on a hill, then u can cover ur regular archers behind the shields, and they can still shoot cos of the high ground.
Quote[/b] (Sjakihata Akechi @ Jan. 09 2003,16:06)]Gah, hate the pavise.
Missile vs. missile can drag on forever, and missile vs. missile is not what I want
Heh me remembers a 2v2 a couple of days ago http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
CBR
Sjakihata
01-09-2003, 17:34
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Exactly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Lot to be learnt from that battle. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
In that 2 vs 2, i think the real problem was (as u know i guess) that one side had 8 pav arbs vs 5 (hope i remember correctly) for the other side. I think the defenders mounted a successful attack on the attacking pav arbs, negating the attackers advantage somewhat. In any case a rule of thumb is when your troops are under fire, you have to either move them out of the way or sacrifice one or two units in an attack or used as arrow sponges. Allowing your men to remian under fire and keep getting shot up is a bad idea. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I personally never engage in missile vs missile if at all possible. Archers are best used to soften the enemy attack and cavalry (again circumstance providing).
Regular arbs are much faster than pav arbs but in missile vs missile they will always lose to the pav arbs for the reason that the pavs have errrr well pavs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
war_blah
01-09-2003, 21:22
I just don't like the way it setup that high level units won't get the valour bonus. Chivarly Knight will get the bonus but Gothic Knights will not, that 1 valour bonus will completely wipe out the extra armor bonus GK over CK.
Quote[/b] ]Does anybody know which unit gains bonuses in what building?
That is a damn good question andrewt.
Silencer
01-22-2003, 16:41
quick bump, like to know it too...
Foreign Devil
01-22-2003, 23:02
Quote[/b] (war_blah @ Jan. 08 2003,14:18)]Seems after the patch the building valour bonus only apply to the units which does not requires a Mastery building. So if you have a Master Bowyer, then your Arbalests/Tucomen/Archers/Longbow/etc will get a +1 valour bonus, but since PA is on top of the food chain, it will not get the bonus(Same with Janissary Archers). +1 valour can make a big difference on archer's ability.
Does this mean if you build Longbowmen in Wales and there was a master bowyer, the Longbowmen would get +2 valour? That seems like a lot.
People mix SP and MP comments in the same thread, and that's not good (I made same mistakes also).
SP and MP are two different games and should be treated as such (thank you CA for a 2-for-1 rebate).
Annie
ps.: in MP, there is not much of a choice: PA rules and PA can stand a frontal cav charge, while non Pav. cannot. An aberation of course. If we take into account how valour are gained in SP (by upgrading armoror instead of buying it), that explains how and why non-pav units exist. But on MP where you can buy anything you want and you only have 16 slots, its a different game entirely.
Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Jan. 22 2003,16:13)]PA rules and PA can stand a frontal cav charge, while non Pav. cannot.
???????
Why is that so? The Pavise Arbalesters have +3 Armour compared to the normal Arbalesters, but not any better defense.
And yes Foreign_Devil you can get V2 Longbows from Wales, not that they are that powerful.
Foreign Devil
01-22-2003, 23:51
Well, it might not be super exellent, but its better than 0, and a good head start for higher valour.
Kraxis:
You forgot the pavise. Pav.Arb. melee with pavise, so it add a large shield effect to the defense stat in melee.
Annie
LadyAnn, you are wrong.
Pavises add only +3 Armour but nothing to defense.
Perhaps I am wrong. Thought it melee with shield and it seems to hold cav much longer. I credit the idea to MagyarKhan and it seems to work for me.
Perhaps the TWA stats need correction? it said Pav.arb. melee with shields, modifier shield bonus of 1.
Could anyone confirm?
Annie
The modifier at the TWA is correct, but Pavises have no bonus to Defense.
Try it out in your own Custom Battle. You will notice that the Arbalesters have Defense 2 and Armour 3, while the Pavise Arbalesters have Defense 2 and Armour 6$.
I did that myself to be sure.
Asmodeus
01-23-2003, 11:35
I'm not sure about the differences either. I field both units in my armies, the Arb's for mobility with a real punch and PA's for when the enemy has loads of archers.
But I was curious as to (apart from the Pavise) what the difference was so I looked at the unit descriptions in the the unit window. In the description for Arbs it says long ranged weapon, in PA's it doesnt even though they use the same weapon. Is this wrong?
No they have the same range, there just isn't enough room for more text.
You can see all the modifiers in Custom Battle setup I think.
Asmodeus
01-23-2003, 15:08
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Jan. 23 2003,06:43)]No they have the same range, there just isn't enough room for more text.
You can see all the modifiers in Custom Battle setup I think.
Ok thats good, thanks Kraxis
Thx Kraxis. My misconception all along.
Annie
Quote[/b] ]Does this mean if you build Longbowmen in Wales and there was a master bowyer, the Longbowmen would get +2 valour?
Foreign_Devil, I beleive that any foot archer unit will get a valor bonus from a master bowyer if a master bowyer is not required for its creation in the first place. If a master bowyer is not mandatory to make longbowmen (I don't remember) then they will get the additional valor in Wales. I know that Trebizond archers come out with 2 valor in Trebizond with a master bowyer whereas Bulgarian brigands made in Bulgaria will not. Bulgarian brigands can't be produced without a master bowyer but Trebizond archers can.
As pointed out in another thread, if you want your pavise arbalesters to have the +1 bonus from the master boyer, you must retrain them in that province. 1 turn to create them, 1 turn to re-train them. 1 turn to rule them all. . . (whoops, just saw the LOTR movie, got carried away). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
They serve different functions. Arbs are obviously better in attack, except where the enemy has lots of missile units and is deployed on a hill (but you have more/better spear/cavalry units). In that case, the enemy can't come off the hill to melee you (since you will flank and destroy him), but he can pepper you with arrows (most annoying when your spear units wilt before they can reach the enemy line). In this case move your pavise Arbs. forward and they can shoot down the enemy front line infantry without taking too many casualties from the enemy archers. They soak up the arrows of the enemy until he runs out, then you can begin the general attack.
Kristaps
01-27-2003, 19:06
You actually can get pavise arbalesters with +1 valor bonus. Just send them through the training camp again, and, voila, they come out with +1 valor. Of course, this means that they effectively become a 2 year training unit rather than 1 year. And if you use them a lot, they are likely to gain that +1 valor in the battle fast on their own.
As to longbowmen: yes, they do come out with +2 valor in Wales if master bower is present; similarly - billmen come out with +2 valor in Mercia if Master Spearmaker is present.
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