Mongolian Hordes

[SirGrotius]

The year is 1196, and I'm thinking of the future, when (I don't remember the specific period of years) the Mongolian Horde arrives. I possess Ryazan and Georgia, and I saw the Horde appear in Ryazan during my last game. I don't want to lose this province as it is extremely wealthy (through trade) and is a hotbed of mercenary activity. On the other hand, is it worth paying for an army even plausibly stong enough to tackle the Horde? I mean, I don't want to lose and then have them be at war with me and sneak down into Anatolia. I wonder what you all have done to confront these belligerent raiders, and if there is a thread detailing this topic that I have missed, please do point that out to me.

[Loras]

in my english campaign the horde came in with 25k worth of troops, i basically let them come to me. i sat around with my english army in armenia, i think. i held them long enough for their kahn to die. i guess you could shove a large army in khazar, or wherever they appear, and wait for them...but, make sure you've got a really high star general, as it'll be a really long battle. my battles with 5k or them took hours, can't imagine how long i'd take to bring down the whole hoard, with the no retreat bonus as well (assuming they only show up in one province, that bonus should apply). this probably isn't much help. what country are you playing as?

[solypsist]

best to pull back; it's doubtful you'll win against that initial incursion. let rebels have that big province and start cranking out the high end troops and your better generals should be in command.
they appear between 1205-1260.

[Sandy-San]

what troops are best against the horde, particularly for the byzantines? the only time i've faced them before, i was the english, they attacked over a bridge - i just put two units of billmen on the bridge and a half dozen or so units of longbows covering the approach... dead mongol hedgehog

now, playing as the byzantines, there a few nice provinces held by rebels off to the east, and I really need to expand - but I know the horde will turn up in about 50 years time, and I don't rate facing them just with spearmen. i'm thinking a square formation of max-armour spearmen, x-bows behind, and a mix of kataphract, pronoio (how do you pronounce that?) and byzantine infantry, let him come to me, use spears to pin his cav, then pile in the kataphract behind, use the byz cav and pronoio to hold off his light cav. any ideas anyone?

[chilling]

Playing as English I usually don't get that far east before the Horde arrives.

I'm usually left to wait until the Horde and the Byz's had have their difference of opinion. Then go in and mop up what's left.

[Brutal DLX]

If you are lazy, you might want to autoresolve. For that, you dont need a good general (although it helps), just build masses of simple spearmen and crossbows. They are cheap enough to build many of them and will decimate the Mongol forces in a short time. Rebellions in provinces conquered by them will help you out, too.

[pdoan8]

As Byz: 16 VG, a couple of Pronoiai Allegion, a couple of Kat, some Byz Cav, some Byz Inf or some more VG http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Start out with the general and all VG. Deploy up close then rush.

It wasn't the best way to play the game since I already know when the Mongol will appear and what type of troops they usually have. However, if you want to beat 14K to 25K Mongols Horde (and ready to fight the battle for a few hours), lots of VG will do.

[kataphraktoi]

Sandy San

Save some money

When I fought against the Horde I had only Byz Infantry and Treb Archers

Byz can take on the Mongol heav Cavs while the Treb Archers wreak havoc

By the way best to fight in the forest.

[Bob the Insane]

If you are playing as the Byz then the Varangian Guard are your saviours...

I had a battle against a large part of the Horde in Georgia (yea they can appear their too..).

I had only 2 units of Varangian Guard and I placed them ahead of the main force of my army (mostly Byz infantry and archers) in a small wood directly inline with the enemies approach route.

It took quite a lot on mircomanagement to keep them in the woods (to stop chasing routers and maintain formation), but it was worth it as the could devastate units of GH Hvy Cav with no casualties and where protected from the GH inf's arrows and the Cav Archers by the woods. It was a massively long battle, but these Varangian Guard just keep killing (even exhausted the fresh GH Hvy Cav was no match for them in the woods)...

My biggest problem in the end was trying to deal with all the horse archers left when I had no light cav of my own available..

[Mr Frost]

Varangian Guard are G O O D http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Consider this , they beat Gothic Foot Knights in a fair fight {I modded them , V.G. , for All_Periods}
They are perform nearly as well against Cavalry as Halberdiers and devour all infantry
Except for allowing them to be built in all eras , I HAVE NOT MODDED THEM http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

That's how good the Varangian Guard are http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Against the Horde , I favor plenty of Pavise Crossbow {I modded Arbalasts for Late Period only , so most others would likely use those} or a mix of those with Longbow if English {Novgorod/Russia Pavise Crossbow with Bulgarian Brigands , Crossbows than Brigands , and Boyars gives a lot of lovely firpower . I like firepower http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif} .
As I modded composite bows , certain archer units {Trebizonds , Bulgars and Mongol to name a few} have notably better performance {all missile units do in my mods , though mostly in accuracy} and rather more in other areas of the game , my own methods now would be of little use to you I imagine ; however I shall relate the last time I remember that I faced the Horde in an unmodifyed game .

Few now live , who remeber this time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

I was Russian in a Late Era game on Normal Difficulty setting {my usual and prefered difficulty leval} . I had most of the Steppes and had begun churning out Boyars , Pavise Arbalasters and Halberdiers as fast as I could {with silver sheilds for the most part} in expectation of the comming of the Mongols . I pushed my ecconomy to the very brink and was able to mustersome six thousand brave souls under the command of the finest General in all the Russias . That his name is lost to history now is a great shame , for he and that mighty army saved his people from most terrible ill fate and woe .
The Host of Russia met the foe in a mountain pass , though alas the memory of that precise place is now uncertain . What is know is the disspossition of the noble heroes in their battle order that they did present to the enemy on that day , and it is as follows :
The army was arrayed in three lines ; as perhaps one third was Halberdiers and another of Arbalasters with Pavises , who though well outfitted were but a militia of commoners and thus ill trained and lacking experience thus the wise commander thought it best the Formation be simple and able to move and fight as one .
The First line was Pavise Arbalasters , their terribly powerful weapons could thus insure that the enemy would taste our peoples rightous wrath before they could even begin to smite us in any way , and likely dominate should the foe choose to duel with missiles our force .
Halberdiers then formed the second line , and a stout line they made indeed The enemies' great advantage in heavy horse became nearly a dissadvantage in the face of so many resoulute men so equipted to lay low just such foes .
The third line was the Noble Boyars . Their pressence thus near greatly cheered the common men and granted them a felling of security so were they there able to guard their flanks and rear , and also bolster the line should it falter . As the enemy advanced with a mind to cross lance with sword , he would and most truely did meet then hungry arrows like rain increasing their woes from the Arbalast quarrels which were like hail . Their first wave suffered much to our missiles , then broke on our lines , but the General kept his men firm in their possition untill the Enemy Prince Ogadai , he was named it is said , was slain and laid in the bloody ground by our anger and then he did charge and like an avalanch our mighty Russian warriors fell upon the cruel foe who in the face of such force and rage and their own dissaray did break and with great fear they fled the feild
Our army harried them , pushed the enemy to a point whence they could be met when came their reinforcements , with the same formation as it began . Withering shafts remorceless then brutal force from halbereds and swords in strong hands when they did close , then withering fire at their backs when they fled did keep them eager in that flight . Indeed , fly did their whole force , the enemy that day , and thus it was done .
That day , great men saved the Russias

[A.Saturnus]

The Horde usually arrives in Khazar. In my Turkish campaign, I abandoned the province and let them attack me in Kiev. They have to cross a river (have been told it`s the Dnjepr, can anyone confirm that?) and my Saracen have successfully repelled them. The Khan died and they went rebel. I put a Imam into Khazar and when Muslims were 97%, I send a jihad there. The rebels gave the province peacefully but were still captured (these silly ones). Confiscated land were worth 60000 florins http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Monk]

I have encountered the Hordes many times, yet the first time was the best of them all. i found that good generals and taking advantage of Hills and terrain was the only way i defeated them. if you would like to know more about this encounter. search for "monk" on the boards and look under the topic "Another Battle From Monk" That tells about it in great detail.

[SirGrotius]

Thank you for all this information, I should put it to good use. I particularly enjoy A.Saturnus's suggestion, I think I'll wait it out and use a Jihad. Nevertheless, I'm loath to give up that Ryazan, and will probably attempt to fight for it with some sort of elite force.

I'm using the Egyptians (easiest faction I've played so far, let's see if I can hold up with them when the whole world turns on me and I have no trade), and look forward to pitting my Ancient yet Enviable culture against the Barbars of the East.

[Sandy-San]

mostly, they come at night... mostly

well, the horde turned up early way before i was prepared, in georgia and khazar. the russians fled from khazar, but i decided to try and hold Georgia...

I faced off 5,000 horde, mostly heavy cav and cav archers versus 2,000 byzantine - mix of spears, byz inf, archers, 3 cav archers, 1 varangian and two kataphract, an 8 star general... formed an infantry line right in the rear corner, on top of a slope, archers behind, using cav to try and encircle . I beat the first two waves easily enough, but they just kept coming

there was a low ridge in front of the hill i was defending, and every time i broke one wave, i'd look up... and there'd be another one coming over the top it was like something out of Zulu "Scouts report Mongols to the sarf sir... tharsands of 'em"

155 mins later, (at nearly 6am) and nearly 2,000 mongols were dead or dying... my reinforcements came out almost perfectly, but even then, apart from the archers, most units suffered 75% casualties. I lost just over one thousand - and the other mongols that attacked georgia? 3000+ prisoners, ransomed back for 39,000 florins.

definitely the longest battle i've had to fight, really quite something. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

(and BTW, my 2nd Kataphractoi unit - killed 406, lost 32 men: scored -1 valour... go figure)