Anyone rely on infantry shock troops?

[econ21]

I am wondering if any players make offensive armies with a heavy component of "shock" infantry units - ones with a high charge like Gallowglasses, Nizaris et?

Maybe because of time spent pre-patch, I normally have spear-heavy armies - say 5 spears, 3 archers (ammo modded to 96), some cav with only a couple of shock infantry as flankers as this is both good on defense and ok on the offense. But a couple of recent battles have made me reconsider and wonder whether to get more infantry shock units.

Both battles were in early me as English in the desert vs a mixed attacking Egyptian AI army.

The first time, I got smashed by the AI. It was a humiliation. I expected to shoot him down from the safety of my spear wall as I have so often done as Catholic in the desert. But the AI softened up my central feudal sergeant unit with a little archery (more for the morale effect than casualties, I suspect) and promptly tore into them with Nizaris. (I confess I didn't even know what a Nizari was.) At the same time, it launched Armenian cav with camels against a flank rather lacking in spears (I put my archers on loose, spreading my frontage too much). The feudals broke very quickly, soon followed by the rest of my army. Only my Templars fought on, but soon fell to spears + camels. The lesson I learnt was: Nizaris, wow

Second time, I reloaded (as a learning experience, honest) replaced my 2 star leader by a 5 star one to match the AIs. The AI tried a similar tactic, but this time I aggressively charged his flanking cav and camels with spears and chased his Nizaris with my one unit of Gallowglasses, followed by a mass charge with the rest of my foot. The AI was slaughtered. The Gallowglasses alone killed around 150 for 5 dead. The lesson I learnt was: Gallowglasses, wow (And the importance of a high command leader too).

Anyway, I wondering about making the core of an offensive army 4-5 Gallowglasses or equivalent shock infantry (Nizaris? Varangians?). I suspect the AI could not cope - I know I get mauled as English spears vs the rebel Scots and Irish if I don't use rather complicated tactics to avoid the Highland or Gallowglass charge. (Heavy cav might do as well but they are weak against spears and rather hard to get a lot of on early.)

Maybe this is all to obvious - what do people think?

[Bob the Insane]

From my SP game experiences a highly offensive army is an advantage right up to the point were you are heavily out numbered. At this point you may cause heavy casualties at first, but you will be worn down, and when you attacking units are exhausted and caught in the open by some fresh re-enforcements you will start losing. In that position a lone defensive unit might stand a chance if given the opportunity to form up.

It's like a defensive army and an offensive army can have the same amount of potential energy to burn up, but the offensive guy burns it up at a faster rate. Thus if an offensive army you either win fast or not at all, and if the opposition has sufficient forces to soak up the casualties you are causing then you are in trouble.

I perfer mixed armys of offense and defence, about a 40-60 split for attacking and a 30-70 split for defending (but in defence half the defensive units will be archers..)

Nothing wrong with your strategy if you can win quick...

[A.Saturnus]

I also prefer mixed armies that are good for offence and defence cause this way I always know what I have. I rely both in offence and defence on inf charge. Especially skirmishers a very usefull (Nizari are amongst my all-time favorites). Nothing better than Ghazi charge to break a spearmen formation.

[Knight_Yellow]

my mp army is usualy 3/4 shock troops, i never take spears.

[Monk]

In Sp i try to keep my armies balanced to make the game more fun, with a few units of missles/artillary, calvery, and some decently strong Infantry. As for MP i, i have a good number of shock troops. ive yet to lose in Mp and in Sp losses come very rarely.

[mav3434]

In the campaign I recently played with the danes, at least 3/4 of my forces were always shock troops, mostly vikings. They are cheap and can be built with just a fort, so its more economical andquicker to just build them and charge them rather than to build a spearmaker, build spearmen, have spearmen hold the enemy, charge the vikings from the flank etc. They take heavy losses, but you can always make more, plus if you lose half of two viking units, the survivors combine to form a higher valor unit. This strategy worked pretty well up until the time the Horde came marching in. I tried to stand out in the open field in a couple of defensive battles, very bad idea So when fighting against the horde and other cavalry I generally put my vikes in the forest and would use a few decimated steppe cavalry units as "rabbits" to draw the horde heavy cav into the trees. That tactic singlehandedly turned the tide on the horde for me.

[HopAlongBunny]

I usually have a few shock units. Cheaper than cavalry and very effective in fank/rear attacks. They are also a cheap way to deal with enemy spears (and protect your own)

Depending on the faction, I will have more or less units classed as shock. As England, why not have as many billmen as your budget will allow? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kongamato]

In my early days in MP, I played as the Turks, and I swore by my JHI(and at them when they didnt do well). Game after game of watching spears melt like butter at the hands of the JHI made me wonder whether they were really necessary at popular florin levels. I would assume that with the SP system's difference in florin supply, that spears would be more useful.

[Acronym]

I rely on both spear walls and shock troops. They make for a deadly combo if pulled off right. If you use the spearwall to block one flank effectively, then you can rush all your shock troops to the other flank.

[Bob the Insane]

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Jan. 30 2003,01:57)]I would assume that with the SP system's difference in florin supply, that spears would be more useful.
In SP you would not still be using spearmen by the time JHI turned up...

Unless you where really short of money....

[econ21]

Bob - in the late period, what would you use instead of spears (by which I include chivalric sergeants)? I've only ever played on early, so I don't know how things play later.

[A.Saturnus]

I would say spearmen (including chiv-sgts) are not a good weapon against JHI. I hadn`t to fight JHI much yet, but I think Halberdiers might be good choice. They`ll lose - of course - but inflict enough damage for their price. If you really wanna defeat JHI, you got to use Foot Knights or VGuards. But in SP you won`t face JHI much and the AI usually doesn`t bring the right units to break spear walls.

[Spino]

The 1.1 patch makes folly any strategy that relies too heavily on one type of unit to win the day. In the Early Era Almohad Urban Militia will cut through everyone else's ranks like butter unless the enemy is willing to waste alot of troops to take them out (even flanking attacks are costly) but they're not invincible. The Byzantines can get by without Varangian Guard units but things get that much easier when you have those crazy Norsemen in your ranks, they'll make quick work of anybody that gets in their way. When playing a western power it's always nice to have a few Viking, Highland Clansmen or Gallowglass units in reserve until the enemy makes serious contact with your line. Gallowglasses and Clansmen are also fantastic values for the money, especially if you boost their Armor and Weapon ratings, you just have to be sure to keep them under strict control. Overall Gallowglass are the better butchers of the two but Highland Clansmen can get there and back in a pinch. If you're playing a Catholic power and have access to none of those units then be prepared to bring more expensive heavy cav into battle with you. When playing the Muslim factions nothing beats Almohead Urban Militia in the Early era. Beyond that, Ghazi are the Muslim equivalent of Highland Clansmen so it's silly not to have a few for flanking attacks.

What am I trying to say? I guess it all depends on your goals and the shock troops you have at your disposal. I always take the balanced arms approach so irregardless of whether I'm attacking or defending I typically go into battle with 4 spears (4 being the absolute minimum), 2-4 missile units, 3-4 sword/shock units, 2 or more heavy cav units and 2 or more med or light cav units.

Basically I stick to this philosophy: Spears to hold 'em, Swords and Axes to gut 'em.