Why dismount?

[All_the_Sultan's_horses]

i would like to know, why would u ever choose to dismount yr knights? they dun get any advantages whatsoever in the game itself, and in fact lose their mobility and charge bonus from the lances.

historically speaking as well, why would knights ever choose to fight dismounted?

[jLan]

A) If you're fighting in a forest.

B) If you're facing loads of spears and spears only. Chivalric foot knights RIP APART chivalric or feudal sergeants..

[CBR]

Knights normally dismounted when defending a position and being outnumbered. Why? foot was better at stopping an enemy cavalry charge.

Later in the middleages we also see knights dismount (leaving a small group mounted for pursuit) when attacking enemy pikes/halbardiers as most unsupported cavalry charges failed against infantry prepared to defend.

In MTW..well at least for attacking good enemy spears/pikes you still could dismount your knights or if defending/attacking in woods..it depends on numbers, terrain and missile support.

But dismounted knights are not as good as they were historically(using their lances dismounted) as they are not that good to recieve a cavalry charge, so you still need some good spear units.

CBR

[Nelson]

Dismounted troops are more useful attacking and defending a castle. Especially defending. Dismounted knights can hold a gate for a very long time.

In the field, mobility is too valuable to discard in most cases. As others have said, foot knights will fare better against pike infantry. I would only do this if I had no other infantry to use and was desperate.

I would not dismount knights to face enemy cavalry unless I was outnumbered badly and could fight in a forest.

[Kraxis]

Don't forget that the very heavy knights will get very tired in the desert quite fast. And with that they lose their mobility advantage, and still they suffer from spears and halbards. In defensive desert battles I always dismount my knights.

[Nelson]

Actually, Kraxis, I don't think I've ever had the option in the desert. It seems that I've always conquered the Moslems before knights can dismount

Anyway, you're right about exhaustion. I try to stock up on local mercenary auxiliaries to help with desert campaigns.

[Kraxis]

Admittedly, now it is less of an issue since the heavy knights don't come on until High, but it still worth dismounting the Order knights.

[All_the_Sultan's_horses]

Hmmm. So Kraxis, knights, in all their heavy armour, tire slower dismounted ?? One would've thought tt they'd tire faster if forced to walk http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Kraxis]

If dismounted they tire slower because their Armour is lower. But more importantly, the point of the mounted knights is their charge and their mobility, but when they are in a desert they get exhausted very fast and that leads to the mounted knights only walking around, in essence just a heavy infantry that is easy to kill with ranged weapons and you get a bonus fighting with spears. By dismounting you negate this to a great extent. While the knights still get tired very fast, they have a better chance at winning as they are closer together and can easier gang up on an enemy, the enemy spears don't get a bonus against them and they are harder to kill with bows due to their smaller size.

[Rowan11088]

Question about this: when you dismount chivalric knights, for example, do they become the same as normally created chivalric foot knights? if so, why ever build chivalric foot knights, if the non-foot knights can switch between those two modes at any time?

[desdichado]

Quote[/b] (All_the_Sultan's_horses @ Jan. 07 2003,03:50)]Hmmm. So Kraxis, knights, in all their heavy armour, tire slower dismounted ?? One would've thought tt they'd tire faster if forced to walk http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
I think it is probably the horses that get tired quicker. Running around in the desert with all that armour on (horse + knight) woould have been pretty tiring even for big warhorses (who were proably bred for strength, speed and not endurance - somebody please correct me if I am wrong - and why desert people rode smaller horses???).

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

How do you dismount knights? I've never seen an option and I'd quite like to try it.

[Foreign Devil]

Before you hit the "begin battle" button, right click on the mounted unit and there should be a "mount/dismount" option torwards the bottom of the menu.

Do this in a castle assault, because most(all?) mounted units can dismount here.

[Lord Krazy]

So your arse doesn't get sore http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] ]
why ever build chivalric foot knights, if the non-foot knights can switch between those two modes at any time?



Rowan11088, it is for this very reason that foot knights per se can not be raised at all. Any player wanting foot knights must build knights.

The AI can have them. I suspect it's because inventing an AI algorithm for when to dismount was too troublesome. So the devs decided to just let some AI knights be dismounted all the time.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Two words - Bridge defense.

[Rowan11088]

You can't build foot knights? Then how come certain provinces give you valor bonuses on them? I'm going for gothic knights as HRE, and I've been building up Saxony and the one next to it, because the one next to it has a bonus when building "Gothic Foot Knights"...was that all a waste?

[A.Saturnus]

Foot Knights can`t be build and I think the AI can`t build them either. But they look up in loyalist rebellions sometimes. From those the AI might have some. If you want to be able to build Foot Knights, you`ll have to mod (that`s easily done if you don`t make the same mistakes as I did http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ). If you do, Foot Knights have lower upkeep than usual Knights. But you should mod Chiv Foot Knight to cost more, otherwise they`ll render Halberdiers useless.

[Red Harvest]

Slightly off topic...but noticed as the Egyptians that if you dismount your Saharan Cavalry you get Murabitin infantry (javelins). This is a nice feature to remember, because Egypt can't get Murabitin otherwise (except as mercs.) Of course, when the battle is over they become Saharan Cavalry once again. Javelins can be pretty devastating in certain situations, particularly when a tough enemy unit is already engaged (tearing up your shield wall). Thought it was kind of odd to get a unit outside one's own faction when dismounting.

By the way, liked the tips in this topic. Knew most of them (trees/bridge/gate) but hadn't thought of using foot knights against Halberdiers. I generally keep my heavy knights out of the desert, and use light cav there instead.

[Rowan11088]

All good info, but I'm still confused...what's the purpose of those provinces that give extra valor to foot knights then? The one right of Saxony for Gothic Foot Knights, and Ile de France for Chivalric Foot Knights. Can this maybe be utilized only by the AI? just annoying, cuz I've been building up those provs. in hope of building foot knights. From the Historical Battles and such, it seems they are quite good, what with added attack and defense to make up for loss of charge.

[Foreign Devil]

Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ Jan. 31 2003,13:04)]Slightly off topic...but noticed as the Egyptians that if you dismount your Saharan Cavalry you get Murabitin infantry (javelins). This is a nice feature to remember, because Egypt can't get Murabitin otherwise (except as mercs.) Of course, when the battle is over they become Saharan Cavalry once again. Javelins can be pretty devastating in certain situations, particularly when a tough enemy unit is already engaged (tearing up your shield wall). Thought it was kind of odd to get a unit outside one's own faction when dismounting.

By the way, liked the tips in this topic. Knew most of them (trees/bridge/gate) but hadn't thought of using foot knights against Halberdiers. I generally keep my heavy knights out of the desert, and use light cav there instead.
If the Almohads dismount their Gulam Cavalry, will they get Sarcen Infantry? Hmm.... this is worth trying...

Edit: Just tested this, and yeah,they can. In a castle assault, anyway....

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I believe the +1 valour for foot knights in certain provinces applies to mounted knights built in aforesaid provinces-when dismounted. For example, If you build chivalric foot knights in Ile-De-France, they will get +1 valour, but only if you dismount them. They lose the bonus when mounted. That's my take on it, anyway.

[cugel]

"Question about this: when you dismount chivalric knights, for example, do they become the same as normally created chivalric foot knights? if so, why ever build chivalric foot knights, if the non-foot knights can switch between those two modes at any time?"

First, the cost and support costs are much lower. Second, the posts about castle defence are quite accurate. Third, they have high honor and morale and generally good armor, plus, foot knights get armor piercing bonus. In addition, it's just fun to have more different units, rather than the same ones all the time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

I've modded the game to make them available to all catholic factions (and I also made Order knights -- Templar, Santiago, etc., available also). My last campaign I used Order Foot instead of spearmen for the backbone of my army. They have better stats and just look cool. (Plus, they weren't just limited to crusades historically). The Crusader knights aren't really different from Chivalric Knights in stats., but they have a different look, so that's fun.

Historically, not every knight could afford the terrific expense of purchasing a suitable war horse (by far the most expensive part of the knight's equipment). There were many poorer knights who followed a leader (who would sometimes have them mounted at his expense), but not always. These men could fight on foot. They also served as support troops for their captain or lord, quite valuable to have in some battles.

If you want to do it, just download Lord Gnome's Crusader_Unit Editor -- it's very easy now that you can see where all the fields go, no more syntax errors Just copy the build requirements for feudal knights (or chivalric knights, etc.), minus the horse breeder part, and paste it into the appropriate place. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif If you want to make feudal or other knights dismountable, change the "dismountable" field from No to Yes and viola

You can also mod the other heavy cavalry (Kataphraktoi & Gulam, etc.) to be dismountable if you want to (I never bother with dismounted Kats, because the Byzantines have Varangian Guards who do the job better anyway -- but not every faction has the equivalent of Varangians).