Islamic Heavy Cavalry

[DemonArchangel]

Islamic Heavy Cavalry sucks. Here;s why

AHC: Die like dogs to Western and Byzantine cavalry,too expensive, role inaccurate historical-wise.

Ghulam Bodyguards: Well, not really, but they can't hold up against western knights either.

Ghulam Cavalry: Not much health, quite weak.

Kwarazmiam Cavalry: Ok, they've got potential, but, Pronoiai Allagion, Kataphraktoi, and high-level western knights rip them a new one. They tire out too easily as well.

Ottoman Sipahi: Bad in every way, they disgust me.

Mamluk Cavalry: Not bad, now if they had a better charge and didn't get shot to pieces by those @$^* horse archers all the time, i'd like them.

Sipahis of The Porte: They come with every noble, and they aren't as good as Boyars, what can ya' do>?

[pdoan8]

It's because they are not designed to win the battle alone

Any Catholic and Orthodox heavy cavalry will be cooked (even before the fight begin) in the North Africa desert if they think they could simply run over Islamic cavalry.

[Acronym]

Use Islamic cav with mawahid foot soldiers(javalins). They are pretty cheap and easy to put high weapon and valor upgrades. Limited ammo but they have deadly volleys, especially when using them behind a spear wall.

I've noticed the turks have pretty decent cav. It's cheaper and quicker than euro cav, but will lose head on. Use Islamic speed to your advantage. Make a spear wall and wrap the flanks(or concetrate all on one flank while keeping your other flank held back for safety). Camels flanking knights works really well too.

[Leet Eriksson]

Islamic cavalry are mostly flankers,thats why they don't fare well head on http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif also the european knights are not really a huge concern,its the ranged units(they are really a turning point of any battle imo)and becuase the islamic cavalry are pretty fast its really easy to send them to some faraway place and ambush the enemies archers in the back while the enemies main footunits are engaged with yours.also if your up against knights use saracens to hold the knights and any type of islamic medium/heavy cavalry to flank them.heck i can even kill chivalric knights with sipahis this way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Basileus]

Weak in europe but in desert maps, my HRE army got trashed in egypt by saharan cavalary armenian cavalary and saracens with muhawid while i had gothics kight chivalric knights and swiss armoured pikemen..got flanked from evry corner and i couldnt even catch them heh

[A.Saturnus]

Muslim cav isn`t weak at all, you just got to use them right.

AHC: They are great. You can train them early, they are cheap (where are you looking at???) and trained in Armenia they are nearly a match to Feudal Knights (except charge). The Byz can`t produce good cav from the start, so you can overrun them with AHC.

Early Bodyguards are superior to early Knights.

Ghulam cav is a good medium cav. Not as good as AHC but still usable and so much cheaper than Feudal Knights or Pronoiai Allagion.

Persian cav is superior to Katas (because faster) and - again - much cheaper. They don`t tire quicker than Knights.

Ottoman Sipahi: You`re right about them, they suck. But they are the only ones. I modded them to be more usefull.

Mamluk cav: the same Armor as Feudal Knights, so if they get killed by HA, Feudal Knights get too (and Mamluks are cheaper&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Alright, Muslim factions have no match to Chiv Knights, that`s right, but it would be bad if they had, because heavy Knights weren`t a Muslim trademark. Still, they have good cavalry units for low prices. And the only reason the Byz don`t get torn under by Muslim cav is that they got a lot of cav with every Royal.

[Kristaps]

Hehehe, gave a try to MP yesterday: chose to play a low florins game on a desert map. My army: muwahids, saharan cavalry, mamluk archers and camels. Had 3 opponents: (1) A bunch of Teutonic Knights, (2) A bunch of varangian guards, (3) A small group of upgraded varangian guards. Well, first, I let the westerners bake a bit in the desert sun trying to chase me; then just surrounded the exhausted enemy with my camels and light cavalry (+4 valor); next thing you see: even the varangians do rout...

As I saw on the replay: the armored enemy units were near exhaustion even before the fight started. They have a hard time in desert where the light muslim cavalry comes in handy.

[Red Harvest]

Location, location, location...

It's all in where you use them. Muslim cavalry works well in desert/arid climate where the western heavy knights tire easily.

[Wizard of Evil]

Fighting head on with islamic cavalry against knights is suicide. They arent even a match for knights,but if u use them wisely u can have good results. I use light cavalary against knights, let the knights chase me, make them tired, and then charge them with fresh units. This works in single player where the AI is dumb in these situations, but in multiplayer i am not sure i will see many people chasing light cavs like crazy. So in multiplayer, fighting as an islamic faction against a non islamic, i would stay away from islamic heavys.

[LadyAnn]

In SP, islamic cav are cheap. At half price, in SP, you can waste a cav on some enemy's unit and still could count on a fresh cav for reinforcement.

So, don't take the enemy head on, use finess.

Teach your Egyptians/Turks/Almohads how to dance.

Annie

[DemonArchangel]

actually, kwarazmiams are useless in the desert, but at least they don't tire out as easily as chivalrics, hhmmm... i must admit, mamluk horse archers are sweet though, muslim light cavalry is superior to other light cavalry (*with the exception of hobilars, jinettes and steppe cavalry) and i sometimes treat ottoman sipahis as light cavalry. I really don't think that islamic factions need heavy cavs in the desert that much anyway.

p.s: I used mamluk cavalry to great effect today, there, now i LIKE mamluks, but kwarazmiams and AHC still suck.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

My definition of heavy cav is more than 5 in both Armor and def.

There are only 3 heavy cav muslim units;

Ghulam Bodyguards; main issue; they are only 20. They are not as good as royal (lower melee / def / morale)... But not by much. Also cheaper than Royal.
As they are only 20, they will have a hard time against any 40 size heavy cav (chiv knight...)

Sipahi of The Porte; same as Late Ghulam but cost 100 more, for a bow / -4 in charge /-1 in charge. That makes them worse

Persan cav (Khwarzamian); + available in early / dirty cheap (same range as Katas and Gendarme). - / Not as good as high / late heavy cath cav for melee.

Everything else is light cav (if fast) or medium cav. I think the perception of muslim 'heavy cav' being poor is related to having a lot of medium cav with muslim vs a lot of heavy cav for cath.

That raises a few questions;
1/ how does HAC/ Ghulam Cav/ Mameluk compare with western Medium cav (think hobilar, mounted Sergeant). Answer ; Slightly better and slightly more expensive.
2/ What uses do you have for medium cav anyway even if you are cath?

I think fast cav is another topic... Fast cav is neat for limited purpose like chasing HA, harassing, pursuing, limited flanking and so on.

On the battlefield what do you need medium cav for?



They are not a lot they can do that either fast cav or heavy cav can't do better than them.
Most of the time they are cheaper than heavy cav. They perform better than heavy cav in desert.
So I would recommand them for low fl MP game and desert. Or if you are broke. Beside that, most of the time I feel better off with either fast or Heavy cav.

I don't know if medium cav or my limited tactic skill is to blame.

Louis,

[Alrowan]

islamic cavalry own in the desert.. enough said

also, camels are one of the best cav units available, simply because they eat most other cavalry alive, and a simple flank on an enemy cav unit with camels will almost certainly cause a rout

[LordKhaine]

They have cheap access to lots of lighter cavalry, which makes running down a fleeing army very easy. With a Catholic army its very hard to fully rout an army since you never seem to have enough horse to do so. But with the Islamic forces you're often filled with light horse... and anyone who runs from you wont run for long http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[BatkoMahno]

Ironically the best *islamic* heavy cavalry is the Armenian Heavy Cav (being cristian actually). They fight very well even better then ghulam bodygards and they have pretty high moral too.
But it seems that only Turks can have them? Or only muslims. So get Armenia,Rum and Lesser Armenia and build them alot eventually after several battles you can tidy up experianced high valour AHC while new once come. In Armenia they get one valour bonus.
So you should rely on them *muslim* AHC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif . Strangely enough they get higher moral if you build mosquee in those provinces too. Hehe ortodox getting higher moral of mosquee in their province.
Bysantians should have them too but they already got too much good cavalry.

[kataphraktoi]

Demonarchangel

one word: mod

To make the muslims more interesting I made their attack better and gave them higher honour to make them more fanatical, as for the heavy cav I made the Khwarazmian missile shock trooper and I can tell you one thing, they are now annoying and deadly than before.grrr but fun to fight. Khwarazmian cav is actually representative of most islamic cavalry who use a bow as well as the standard shock weapons. Islamic cav light and heavy combine this often. As you know the middle east has a strong history of missile - shock troopers in its ranks despite the overwhelming number of light cavs.

Good modding to ya if you want to try it

who need islamic heav cav when you have rotten camels anyway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Tempiic]

Seem to forget something

It appears to me that muslim infantry is also cheaper than western counter parts.. Especially upgrading their archer warriors. This makes it quite easy to upgrade your quite cheap muslim cavalry. Least it does for me.. I somehow always have more than enough cash http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[SirGrotius]

I concur with Batkho--Armenian Heavy Cavalry are best You can create them in the early period, and there isn't an answer to them until it's too late Furthermore, the Saharan cavalry are fast enough to put Horse Archers and Crossbowmen to rest, and Camels are fun to harass enemy medium cavalry with (can they really withstand hold their own against heavy cavalry units?).