Concerning Kataphraktoi...

[keet]

I understand that heavy cavalry is not as good as the knights but I have some issues concerning kats and the strategy guide.

The guide goes on to say they are fearsome and some of the heaviest cavalry the world has ever known which makes them sound so great but yet they are the equal to khwarazmians other than charge and close to Armenians.

My problem is that if kats and khwars are identically armored, why do kats suffer the huge speed difference?

[jimmi6j]

if it bugs yu that much just mod them.. change their speed rating in the unit .txt file think its under run and charge .. dont quote me as i dont have the file on this computer ...

[Silencer]

yup

same with the Gothic knights and lancers.
both equally armoured; but lancer go faster.

I modded kap and gothic knights to equal speed as lancers and Later royals.

[Brutal DLX]

modding is all nice and well, but I like that it is unbalanced in the MP.. if you balance all units, you can do away with all the factions and just play as one, with different fancy colours, because that's what you will get.

Different unit are just that, different, you have to deal with that, it's part of being a good general.

[Leet Eriksson]

well its pretty obvious,persians,arabs,turks and spanish have unusual stamina thats why they are speedier.

[BatkoMahno]

LOL good one Faisal. You brought some light there

On paper it does maybe says they are equal but in the game Katas beat soundly both Khwarazmian and Armenian heavys so I guess they had to balance somehow.
But lancers got away with it all. Supernatural stamina was required for one to be taken in lancer unit Loads of amfetamin too for your horse specially. They love to butcher hashishins...

[econ21]

I don't know for sure, but my reading about kats in the Roman period implied that they were a little slow whereas we have an image of more dramatic Germanic heavy cavalry charges from the Goths to the Middle Ages. Maybe there was initially an issue over stirrups. Maybe they bred better mounts over time? (Of course, the Biz may also have upgraded over time but you do get kats early). Maybe Gothic armour is lighter in weight than what the kats wore?

The lancers vs Gothic knights speed issue is more curious. Were Spanish horses better bred?

Anyway, we probably should not ponder too much. I think MTW is heavily stylised - CA are trying to make a fun mass-market strategy game with a historical flavour, rather than a historical simulation or wargame proper. This is most clearly seen with the Knights Templar's lower charge value arising from the artists drawing them with swords.

[kataphraktoi]

DOn't change the speed of the KAT

It needs to be slow

just load it with lots of armour to weigh it down

what am i saying

[Cazbol]

I'm playing the Byzantines at the moment and I can't understand what the Kataphraktoi can be used for. They become exhausted just standing motionless on the battlefield I've never seen anything like it.

I deduced that it must be a matter of using them before they grow tired from bearing their own weight, so I charged them against a weak unit in the start of the battle. My kataphraktoi were on top of a hill and the intended target was below it. The kataphraktoi who were at least "quite fresh" when they charged, were "exhausted" by the time they'd gallopped down that moderate hill. I'm certainly not training these weirdos anymore. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Sandy-San]

well i've not tried kats in the desert, but elsewhere no complaints. they are ars*-achingly slow, but once you get them into combat they are like tanks. without the speed, they need to be used more for close combat, I tend to hold them as a second wave, let the spears bog down the enemy then use Kats on their flank. and they are v.cheap in comparison to other hvy cav.

[Hakonarson]

Kats need to walk everywhere except the last 20 paces of a charge

Historically they consist of men completely covered in mail, splint and lamelar armour on horses completely covered in metal scale - that's a LOT of armour for a horse to carry.

IIRC the rule of thumb for a horse is that is can carry about 1/5th of its own weight relatively easily, but even a large horse (1200 lbs) is going to have a hard time carrying around all that metal for any length of time.

again historically Kat's were used only for a decisive charge - ie when the enemy is already wavering. Often they would be "aimed" at the enemy general.

compared to the types already mentioned in this thread Kat's have a higher charge than Kwarizmian (8 vs 6) for the same cost, and higher melee (5 vs 3) and armour (7 vs 4) than Armenian cav.

All cavalry seem to tire more easily than infantry and shuold be walked as much as possible ratherthan chrunning all over the battlefield - the Kat's walk speed is the same as both the Kwaz's and the Armenians - 9.

To those people who complain about their lack of mobility - you really need to learn to stop trying to use them as cavalry then Try using them as fast infantry and you'll find they're a lot better

[Foreign Devil]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ Feb. 04 2003,07:32)]The lancers vs Gothic knights speed issue is more curious. Were Spanish horses better bred?
There may be some truth to this. I know that England, at the very least imported horses from Spain, among other places.

However, I would have to agree that the difference in the game is more due to sylistic.balancing concerns than any minute historical accuracy.

[Hakonarson]

Lancers were lighter armoured than the archtypal gothic knights.

Knightly armour went 2 routes - in Germany they developed teh fantastic (and fantastically expensive) Gothic style that included very elaborate horse armour, but in Spain and France they discarded heavy horse armour relatively early (although they did use a lot of non-metallic).

Also German knights were not as well trained as others - most of them were describes as "Sergeants" when they went into foreign mercenary service - a few in the front ranks might have excellent armour but most were using old and often incomplete armour, and often riode relatively substandard horses and tried not to lose them as they were their main sourceof income

Most such "knights" were "ministrales" - a sort of poor, unlanded "knight".

Lancers OTOH, IMO, are erlatively unencumbered by horse armour, are all relatively well equipped, and have also abandoned shields because body armour is sufficient protection without further encumberance.

I don't know if this is WHY CA made Gothic's slower, but it's a couple of reasons why they might've been a bit slower historically.

[kataphraktoi]

This is what kataphrakttoi/Klibanophori units were made of, since they were expensive they were small in numbers.

ANyway 2 out of 5 men would use bows, while the strongest used the kontos(lance) in the front, they would march slowly towards the army, with the armour they're wearing it is expected that the arrows would bounce off them. When they get within striking distance they then charge in wedge formation effectively breaking the enemy lines or whats left of it. Frustratingly slow yet satisfying when they reach the enemy

[rasoforos]

yep they are slow , but when they get their hands into an enemy , and having a good general around , they can be trusted to do the dirty work without you worrying about them losing cause they just wont. If you had a unit that could smash practically through everything AND run fast without getting exhausted then the game would not be medieval: total war , it would be Katarmageddon or somthing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

i like kats the way they are , i keep lighter cavalry to do the traditional cavalry job and have the kats to make sure i get the more-than-extra punch in the weak spots of my army during the conflict.

[Kristaps]

Someone here mentioned Kataphraktoi having 5 Attack rating. Their attack rating is 3 actually. Here are the stats for comparing Kataphraktoi to Kwarazmian cavalry:

Stat: Kataphraktoi, Kwarazmian
Charge: 8, 6
Attack: 3, 3
Defence: 5, 5
Armor: 7, 7
Morale: 4, 4
Run Speed: 12, 20
Charge: 16, 22
March: 9, 9

There seems to be no difference except for +2 charge for Katas and substantially reduced speed.

In my experience, they die fast like flies even if committed to flanking attack. The Kata SP success stories here might be due to them being commanded by 9 star byzantian generals. And, most probably, the opposing generals was of much lower rating... A general with 9 stars means +4 battlefield valor to all units, which would bring freshly recruited Katas' attack to 7 and defence to 9.

[econ21]

Good point, Kristaps - command is incredibly important and don't forget the morale benefits (often I find my perfectly decent army just flees after a moments clash of arms if led by a zero star commander).

But those Kwarazmian cav require master level buildings, which implies they are competing with chivalric or better units. The thing about kats is you get them at the start (they were around in the Roman period too) so relative to the other low tech stuff around they are awesome. It's all relative.

[LadyAnn]

But, but, but,... Faisal, we refer to the horses here?

Annie

[Silencer]

Don't the Kwarazmian troops also have mail armour on their horses? I'm thinking so.

Why is it then that the Kataphraktoi are still slower?
does'nt seems right to me...