Ambushes and hiding (or not...)

[powdermonkey]

I thought I'd start a thread on hiding units in trees.
I know this has been covered before, but I don't think many useful suggestions have been made.
I have had great difficulty in hiding units and setting ambushes, although it was pretty easy in the demo, I've never successfully pulled it off since.
I've noticed that:

1. Horses NEVER hide well. Even if they're fully hidden by trees and behind a hill, the enemy always seem to spot them and go straight for them. (Maybe they can smell the horsesh*t?) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

2. Often, when hiding infantry, the woods they are concealed in are too far from the main battle to enable a successful ambush.

Have any of you out there managed to pull off a successful ambush?
Have you any tips or hints on how to do it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Exile]

I've never had an ambush work like the one in the tutorial. At this point, I am pretty certain that player troops are often seen by the AI even though they have the hidden symbol. I've seen the AI march troops well out of its way to engage my 'hidden' troops.

I use woods in certain circumstances to battle enemy calvary and archers. I've given up using it for ambush.

[Lord Of Storms]

It works best when the woods are in close proximity and you do not have to move to far to get there I have had some success especially in mountain regions I would hide my cav in the woods and put my main force out for the enemy to see and hopefullydraw them in and keep there attention long enough to spring the trap it has worked a few times.

[Beelzebub]

It can be good even if they are somewhat far off. If the enemy has lined up and about to attack, they you start moving those 2 units of vikings or highlanders (or whatever shock troops) you had way off on his flank, you either mess up his attack and force him ot break off units to deal with it, or they are going to hit hard shortly after the battle starts.

[Fairlight]

Quote[/b] (powdermonkey @ Feb. 03 2003,09:50)]I thought I'd start a thread on hiding units in trees.
Woods don't work. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It's the plain truth, I'm afraid.

I've had success once or twice -- but once or twice I've seen AI units rumble right past the snorting nostrils of my cavalry *in the open field* as they press toward my battle lines....

I imagine them waving hello and goodbye when this happens. It's comical to watch, like an episode of Blackadder. Of course, they just get squashed once I've stopped laughing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Not that the AI is that bad all the time. I've been ambushed when not observant.

[71-hour Ahmed]

Ambushes worked brilliantly in Shogun, so I'm assuming the game was changed to stop chessy people like me doing that in every battle. Never got it to work properly in MTW, not for want of trying http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

I guess the typical "200 OK Japanese dead vs. 800 elite mongol deaths" I would get and other similar victories were seen as too easy.

[Yagyu Jubei]

I have had some success even just recently....Playin as Byz....I had some "Woodsman"...they hid pretty good in the woods..can't remember what map it was...but perhaps they were just overlooked...any way...I used them as reserves cuz they aren't all that tough anyway...got the Polish to overextend and then out of the woods came the woodsman to finish off the kill.... it was fun..
I agree though that it doesn't work quite as well as hiding a nice force of WM did in STW......

[LordKevinV]

I had an ambush work really well for me once. I was fighting somewhere in northern Italy and I was the Italians. I forget most of the specifics of the battle, but basically I had the lesser amount of troops and not a great quality. Except for calvery. I had two units of mounted crossbows and a 3 units of royal knights. What it basically came down to was the mounted crossbows drew the AI into my main force while the royal knights hid behind a small hill with some trees. As the main enemy force passed by I charged them from the rear and bam I slaughtered them all.

[Kristaps]

I've noticed the AI to scout all near-by wooded patches before they group for the main attack. It might be that they do not see your hidden troops in those patches -- they just run into them while scouting the area (which is not such a stupid idea on the AI part). Another reason why the AI might be inclined to send their troops into the woods is to hide them from the player and stage an ambush of their own (in a few instances they have been successful to pull this off on me): so, not such a bad idea on the AI part either.

The above are just a couple reasons that I could think of to justify my ambushes going wrong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif... But I will try again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Lord Romulous]

i think it helps to keep your ambushers deep in the woods.
if you are hiding on the edges of the forest or in just a small clump of trees then you will get spotted. and i think once the enemy reachs a certain distance from the hiding unit the unit can be seen.

i also have seen the ai use ambushs to great effect.

i had a well balanced force of spears, pav abs, swords and cavs and was against a rougly the same number force composed of 60 % Chiv knights and hobliers and 40% fanatics.

I was anticipating a fairly easy battle, cut down the enemy with my pav abs until their cav charges then hold with my spears and flank with my swords and cav.

but the problem was that on either side of the battle field were two huge forests. the ai promptly put its entire force of fanactics about 500 or so in the woods. and camped its knights at the back of the field. leaving me with two choices either march over the battle field to attack the knights, and brace for the flank charge by the fanatics probably combined with a frontal charge of the ais knights or take my two units of Men at arms and try to clear out the fanatics in the woods before engauging the knights. the risk that i would lose so many of my Men at arms in the forest battle that i would not have enough killing units (cav and men at Arms) to flank the knights that were planned to be held by my spears.

a unpleasant choice on both accounts.

in the end i opted for exploiting the fact that the ai had no missiles by sending my cav close to the woods, but out of charge range by the enemey cav. the fanatics being the impetious lot they are promptly charged out of the woods. i retreated my cav and let the pav abs make dart boards out of the fanatics. i did this a few time until the fanatics were no longer a threat and then engauged the knights.

i like victories where you have to think a bit.

[Alrowan]

ive got a replay of a most perfect hiding out in the woods. the enemy underestimated a flank of mine and focused on it, only to have 4 units of lancers smash him in the side... needless to say it was a rout thereafter

the trick in MP is only hide 1-2 units, as the enemy can count up your units to see if any are missing.

[MizuKokami]

i think there might be a chance that you have to lead the ai into the ambush you have laid for them. in other words, after the battle starts, move the main body of your army out into the open, and move back some(or however you have it laid out). then when they are close to your troops in the open, your ambush can be sprung. after all, what good is a trap without bait?

[Brutal DLX]

In SP, I think it really depends on the kind of map you get for battle. Sometimes there may be woods in it, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a good idea to hide your units in them for an ambush.
As far as I have experienced, there are some nice maps suited for laying ambushes in the Eastern part of Europe, Lithuania and beyond..
And if you hide, you still have to bait the enemy so they'll pass by or turn their back to the spot where you are lying in ambush... it's not much of an ambush if you sit directly in the path of advance of the enemy army. Just like you shouldn't sit on the track when the freight train comes through.

[Ryttare]

The best ambush tactic is the triangle, putting ur main army at one of the edges and groups of horseman hiding in trees on the tw otoher spots

I have a quick replay of that sort of ambush, wwrox against every unit. If anyone want it, i'll be happy to send.

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

I've had a few successful ambushes. The trick does seem to be hiding the units further back in the woods than one would like, & far enouch forward that the enemy will be completely past them. When the ambush is sprung, it doesn't matter that they are seen before engagement because at that point their retreat is cut off. & as in real combat, even a well-executed ambush may fail by chance or comparable enemy execution.

One ambush, I had my main line between two patches of dense woods with an ambush of three infantry units in both. The AI sent some troops through the woods on the left, so that ambush didn't work; but the ambush on the right was successful in attacking the enemy rear.

In another, I put the exposed line at the end of the patch of woods & hid a similar number of troops along in the woods. They successfully smashed the entire enemy rear after they had engaged my line.

[Jxrc]

I have only seen one very successful ambush and I was the victim of it ... This was my first battle playing as Spain (early) and I was attacking Cordoba.

My poor spearmen got ambushed by three units of AUM and just got slaughtered in no time.

My shortest SP campain so far ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I have tried to use the same trick several times and it never worked for me since I have usually ended up with my cavalry being smashed by dodgy units (woodsmen, peasants, etc, take a pick) in the very woods that were suppposed to conceal it...