Livonian rebel names...

[Kristaps]

Grrrr... I'm always getting annoyed by the Livonian rebel names in MTW. It appears that Livonia was inhabited by Russians in the 11th - 15th centuries which is utterly wrong. The names should be either Latvian (Kurs, Liiv, Seel, Legtalian tribes) or Estonian not Russian. The same applies for Lithuanian rebels: those were/are no Russians either...

[rasoforos]

when it comes to names the developers did not do their homework , Byzantine names are strange as well since some where not really famous and in one case 'bulgaroctonus' it was a nickname given to emperor bassileius II for his victories against the bulgarians ( and his famous 'take 30.000 POWs , take their eyes out , leave 1/1.000 with one eye , send em back to bulgaria).Iwas hoping to see this corrected in the patch but it didnt.

[MiniKiller]

Why are the Russians names the ppl of novogord with early campaign? Can we change this?

[Kristaps]

The people of Novgorod were Russians. Thus, its correct to use Russian names for them. As to the name of the country: it was actually the city state of Novgorod (among other Russian city states in existence before the arrival of Mongols) not Russia at the time. Russia came about later originating around Moscow.

[Kristaps]

Hehe, speaking of the North-Eastern end of the European map, I believe, the People of Novogorod did not have access to the sea at the time (XII century)... St. Petersburg area was populated by Finn-Ugric people and the notorious russian "window to the west" was "cut" by Peter the Great many centuries later http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I guess a finnish rebel province blocking Russian access to the sea would be more historically accurate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Similarly, in the XII century Lithuania was blocked from the sea by the Latvian tribe "Kurs" and Prussians: both conquered/annihilated by German order men a bit later.

[Sainika]

The lands of North-Eastern Europe were inhabited by Russians in 4-6 centuries. And russians live peacefully with finno-ugoric tribes long before Peter the Great founded Saint-Petersburg.
As for Livonia, Russians live there too but they were minority. Main population were eestiand livs, finno-ugoric tribes. They live in peace until eesti was converted into Catolic faith (before that they were as Russians, pagans) by germans.

[Cazbol]

I think it's a bit far-fetched to expect culturally accurate names for every province. Getting something close to real names for the main factions is impressive enough for me. From that they'll just have to give the rebels names from neighbouring factions.

As for the Byzantine emperor's nicname, the same is true for the "Bluetooth" name of the Danes. It's a nickname given to king Harald Bluetooth (or Blåtand or Blátönn in different versions). All in all I'm quite pleased with the obviously not perfect names.

[BatkoMahno]

This with names is not fully developed. No one even noticed that bysantines on field russian in the game? When I heard it first time I was amused. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Novgorod was part of Kiev Russia. But they always wanted to be free. They did that several times until Kievs Grand Duke came and clame it back if he had forces. After Mongols took Kiev the sa caled unity broke and you can say Novgorod was free as only russian democracy. Novgorod did have acces to Baltic see. It is the Swedes who shut it down later with their *crusades* in those areas and constructing several fortresses there, (So first Sweden had to appear) until Peter the Greate *Opened the window*.

Look at mercenaries names and you will see real chaos in names. I even published a screenshot in a topic with that. Can't find it now.

[Leet Eriksson]

most muslim names are incorrect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif especially the almohads.

[Kristaps]

Livonia was actually a combination of what is today's Latvia and Estonia. Historically, Livonia was a name given to the territory by its German conquerors and it was not "unified" in any sense before the German crusades. However, I have to disagree: Russians did not live in the territory of today's Livonia in the XI - XII centuries. The territory was not exclusively populated by finn-ugric people either. Estonia (the northern part of Livonia) was practically exclusively finn-ugric whereas the southern part: today's Latvia was populated by Baltic tribes (Kurs, Semgalian, Letgalian, Selian: all close relatives of Lithuanians and Prussians) and Liivs (a finn-ugric tribe) - ancestor's of today's Latvians. According to recent archeological finds: the Balt and Finn-Ugric tribes made it there about 6000 years ago.

[Lord of the Isles]

Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Feb. 06 2003,00:51)] ... take their eyes out , leave 1/1.000 with one eye , send em back to bulgaria). I was hoping to see this corrected in the patch but it didnt.

I expect the one-eyed Bulgarians were also hoping to see things corrected by a patch.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Sainika]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ Feb. 06 2003,18:20)]However, I have to disagree: Russians did not live in the territory of today's Livonia in the XI - XII centuries.
Actually I have to disagree with you. 2000 years ago greek and roman writers mentioned in their chronicles a misterious tribe of Veneds - the ancestors of slavenic tribes. That time they lived in Northern Europe including Baltic shore and Livonia as well along with finno-ugoric tribes which moved there from Ural mountains. In finnish language Russia is called Venaaja, the land of Veneds. In XI-XIII cent. russian prince Vladimir owned Livonia as part of his kingdom but lost it due to germans.

[Kristaps]

[QUOTE]

Eastern-most Latvian tribes (part of Letgalians) used to pay tribute to Russian princes before the German arrival: however, Kurs, Semgalians, Liivs, and Selians have no such record. Also, if you read the German chronicles: they refer to "baptizing" and fighting Liivs, Letgalians, Semgalians (the whole Semgalian nation actually moved to Lithuania after the final defeat by Germans), Kurs, and Estonians in the territory of Livonia: no mention of Russians.

The Teutonic order tried to take control of Russian lands too but were stopped by Russians. The most famous battle from the period probably is the one in which german knights were drowned in the icy waters of the lake of Peipus due to a tactical trick by Alexander Nevsky... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The Livonian territory (Daugava river in particular) was used as a transit route by the vikings (the varangians...) on their way to the Black sea for centuries. The same vikings who came to establish and rule the Russian city states, including Novgorod and Kiev. That's a different story though...

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] ]2000 years ago greek and roman writers mentioned in their chronicles a misterious tribe of Veneds - the ancestors of slavenic tribes. That time they lived in Northern Europe including Baltic shore and Livonia as well along with finno-ugoric tribes which moved there from Ural mountains

The Roman sources refer to Veneds who were ancestors of all modern-day slavs including Polish, Bielorussians, Yugoslavs, Russians, etc. However, those same Roman records also report roman trade in amber with non-slavic and non-finn ugric Baltic tribes: the Prussians and Yatvingai in particular.

Anyway, my comment was about Livonia (today's Latvia and Estonia) having Russian rebels as their leaders in MTW. The fact that Letgalians paid tribute to Russian princes aside, there were no Russian leaders/aristocracy in Livonia in the XII - XIII centuries: all historically recorded rebellions (against Germans and Danish) in the period were led by Liivs, Semgalians, Kurs, Selians, Letgalians, and Eesti.

[chegewara]

oh, but this is sooo typical of small nations in general and that area in particular to bitch about historic details nobody really cares about (like what's the great deal of difference between "owning" the area and receiving tributes?).

tell you what, i have lithuanian origin, and russian surnames and conic helmets on lithuanian cavalry amused me but nothing more. i know how sensitive this issue is (e.g. a pole and lithuanian can argue who won grunwald for like hours), but it's not reasonable to expect the devs to stick to such a high level of historic accuracy

[el_slapper]

Yeah. They ALREADY made a good job. Being brits, it's easy to understand they are more familiar with western Europe. French names are rather accurate. I guess the eastern you go, the less accurate it is... They are humans after all.

Considering that MTW is a "niche" game, the level reached is already very good.