Tactical AI issues

[Bhruic]

Some things about the tactical AI have started to puzzle me, and I'm wondering if someone can come up with explanations I can't.

The most annoying situation is when I'm defending. I'll pick a nice hill, circle it, and put archers in the middle. Now, if I was attacking that hill, I'd expect to have a difficult time of it. But the computer seems to have an even worse one. With archers, it'll line them up at the base of the hill and trade shots with mine (or with my front line troops). Ok, makes sense. But without archers, it'll still march up to the base of the hill and just stand there. My archers, of course, proceed to decimate the troops. Just for variety, the computer will wanders some troops back and forth along my lines, before retreating them to stand with the rest. I can just sit there and shoot until my archers run out, at which point I can charge them and rout them easily. What kind of tactics is that?

Another AI issue is when you've got skirmishing units. This affects both you and the computers units, but when it's yours, the computer is still controlling the skirmishing behaviour. Skirmishing works very well under certain circumstances. For example, if you are skirmishing against a single enemy unit, yours will generally function properly, as long as it has lots of space. However, it seems to have some real difficulty when it runs into the edge of the map. It just stands there, trying to run off the map, but of course not being able to, and gets slaughtered. Wouldn't it make sense to either have them automatically flee the battle (by going off the map), or having them run in a different direction?

Another skirmishing problem is that your skirmishers apparently have tunnel vision. That is, when they are firing at a group, they appear to be unable to spot any other enemy. I can't tell the number of times my horse archers have been shooting at one enemy, and just stood there as another group walked into them and slaughtered them. The same thing happens with the computer, if you are chasing a group of skirmishing enemy, and they run through another group, the second group will just stand there and let your unit charge them. Seems if you haven't targetted them, they aren't aware of your presence.

Bh

[Exile]

Reagarding your first issue - have you installed the patch? I had similar experiences to your pre-patch, but now it happens rarely, if at all. The patch included some tactical imporvements for the AI. If you didn't patch, I suggest checking it out. you'll be in for a surprise http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

skirmishing - I've seen the same results. I usually only skirmish with horse archers and still I must keep one eye on them because as you said, a second unit will march right up to them and it's like my horse archers don't see it. I have little to offer in the way of an explanation regarding skirmishing, except that I do not use it much.

[max_killer_payne]

Sometimes the A.I can be amazing on MTW sometimes you could get a 2 year old with better tactical sense. An example:

I've made my own LOTR map pack after seeing Alworans. My helms deep map, I think is damn good. Anyway, so in the readme it states: 'Give the enemy, siege weapons so they can knock down your walls'. But the fact is the enemy dont even attack the gates or walls, the only way to get them to attack the walls is place a unit behind the walls, so the enemy fires and the walls take the blast. O.k so once the walls are down problem solved right?? Wrong, next the enemy stands at the breached wall, doing sweet FA. And I have to attack them my selfs, when in Helms Deep the enemy attack you. Which is really annoying.

[econ21]

Um - I agree with the comment about the patch. Maybe the AI is calculating the odds of success and if they don't look good, is stalling. Pre-patch, it seemed spears were stronger than now so maybe that explains it. Or maybe the AI is more aggressive. Right now, I don't observe the stalled attacks so much unless I am very strong or the AI has mainly light Muslim troops who probably could not storm the hill.
I quite like the AI on attack - usually it comes on in earnest; sometimes in echelon; often trying to turn a flank; sometimes it just thinks "Forget this, I'm outta here" and departs the field. The stalled behaviour you describe is perhaps the most annoying but may not be too unhistorical - think Rorke's Drift or many engagements in the era of firepower (the enemy does not close due to low morale in the face of strong firepower).

[Bhruic]

Yup, I installed the patch thinking that would help, but alas. It's like the enemy is too scared to charge my lines, but too stupid to get out of bowshot range. Not that I have a problem with that from a "I'm going to win" point of view, but it's not terribly challenging. AI programming isn't my strong suit, but I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be that difficult to have them either attack or move out of range. Standing there admiring the accuracy of my archers is sweet and all, but... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The problem with not using skirmishing is that that's what horse archers are made for. Yes, I can use them to chase down fleeing enemies, or charge an isolated archer group, but I can make normal light cav to do that. Having to micromanage my horse archers means I can only have 1-2 units of them, or I'll lose track of one and have it butchered.

Bh

[Elmo]

Bhruic

The AI had no trouble storming the hill I occupied in a recent battle. However you mentioned that you formed up in a complete circle. I didn't and the AI sent units to flank me as well as making a frontal assault. I wonder if the AI has trouble deciding what to do if there is no flank being presented?

If you had a save just prior to the battle you could try it again but this time don't form a complete circle just to see what happens.

Elmo

[Beelzebub]

I've noticed the AI is much better at assaulting since the patch. They are pretty good at using cavalry for flanking also.

[Bhruic]

Oh, yes, I know if I don't line my troops up well the computer will try and flank me. I'm not complaining about its behaviour when there's an obvious opening. And, really, I'm not complaining about it not wanting to charge the hill when there isn't. Heck, -I- wouldn't want to charge the hill. But what I -am- complaining about is the fact that instead of withdrawing, it just stands there and takes bowfire. That's just dumb. If you're not going to attack, you don't just stand in bow range and watch your unit get whittled down.

Bh

[Exile]

"Admiring the accuracy of your arhcers.."

hehe. "My God Justinius what fine bowmen there are on yonder hill. It is so masterful, I dare not approach and hinder them. What say we stand here and see how many of us drop. I'll bet you 5 quid we run after 20 of our fellows are dead..what do you say?" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif


hmm..this is interesting Bhruic. I could see it happening once in a while, or even consistently in a lopsided conflict vs. an AI faction which doesn't have the right troops to match you, but from your original post it seems to happen a lot in your games.

I've never tried a full circle formation, so I'm not sure if that's a factor. As you said - it would be frustrating if it were.

Are you playing on either hard or expert setting? Those difficulty levels give a boost to AI abilities, which in turn might lead to more aggressive behavior. That's all I have... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Elmo]

Exile

You wrote: "Are you playing on either hard or expert setting? Those difficulty levels give a boost to AI abilities, which in turn might lead to more aggressive behavior."

I didn't know that. Thought I read elsewhere those harder settings just gave the AI more florins and more troops. Do you have any info on how that boost is implemented?

Elmo

[Bhruic]

Yes, I'm playing on expert. It's not really a full circle, but my typical defense tactic is to find a hill that's at the boundary of the map, and form a half-circle defense around it. I know the enemy can't get in from behind, so I have all of the approaches covered. Pretty much any time I successfully do that (which basically means that the terrain co-operates), the computer seems stymied.

The sad thing is that the computer almost always outnumbers me when I do this, usually greatly. Admittedly I often have the superior quality troops (and who doesn't vs the computer), but with sometimes 4:1 odds, you'd think they'd be a little more secure in their approach. If I were to turn on unlimited ammo, I could probably hold the outer line with peasants. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Bh

[cugel]

Yes, when you play on expert, the AI gets a morale bonus (I think it's 2) and a melee bonus (I'm not sure about that one). This makes it more difficult as it's troops last longer before routing and dish out more damage. Try that. Also, if you are defending on the rear or edge of the map, the AI can't flank you and can't find a way to attack. Sometimes it just gets confused. I used to do this all the time in Shogun, but it is now considered a cheesy tactic against the AI in MTW (and is apparently frowned on in MP as well -- from what I read).

[Exile]

Elmo - his information I picked up from one of the gurus here. I cannot remember the exact figures and my searches couldn't find the post. Here's what I remember:

HARD - small bonus to attack/defense, +1 I think

EXPERT - same as HARD and AI gets +4 morale. this I remember becuase the discussion was basically that some players thought the morale bonus was unbalancing and refused to play expert.

I wish I could find the post..

Bhruic - A semi circle agasint the back of the map is the same strat I most often use on defense. I can't imagine why the AI is stalling all the time. Usually, the AI will attack me straightout, since the patch that is. Hopefully, some one will come along and shed a little light on the subject. In the meantime, I know you don't want to compromise your best tactic, but maybe meet the enemy army head-on. It'll be good experience for MP anyway and your non-archer troops won't be so bored http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Bhruic]

I do that more often now, but when I'm outnumbered by anything greater than 2:1, I usually want to use some sort of defensive formation. Just slugging it out tends to have a negative long term effect (ie, my army gets worn down).

Bh

[Elmo]

Thanks Exile and cugel. Good stuff to know. Maybe this thread is getting close to making the Table of Contents http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[econ21]

Bhruic - I know how you feel. I try to emulate Napoleon's principle: be aggressive strategically, defensive tactically. ie I invade a province, often unopposed and let the AI bash it's head against the rock of my defensive position. I modded the arrows to 96 to reduce the terrible attrition you mention but I sometimes feel the AI is acting a little lame. However, I suspect this IS cheesy (I rationalise it by being the English, who tended to follow such tactics). As some have said, maybe we should discipline ourselves not to line up with our backs to the map edge? (Maybe CA should think about getting rid of the map edge for RTW?).
I am also wondering about modding the Islamic archers to give them longer range composite bows. At the moment, they are have the disadvantage of light armour with no compensating superiority as skirmishers.

[Lord Of Storms]

I have installed the patch and have experienced problems when I am in a defensive position on a hilltop ,recent example playing a Swiss mod I was defending in Tyrolia against the HRE very hilly terrain I waited atop the mountainside a small bank of trees to the right of me I hid some spears and pike units and left some spears and chiv sgts in the open for the enemy to attack ,being at the hilltop they could not flank me well they took their time getting to me , royal knights skirted the outer border never approaching the battle zone the advancing units wandered aimlessly then finally advanced on my position when I charged them with my hidden units they turned and ran without putting up a defense?I think the very hilly terrain confuses the ai somehow? I do not know only that this is strange behavior.

[pdoan8]

Usually, the AI (after patch) is quite good at picking the weaker spot in my defensive line to charge. However, there are a few situations where AI seems to be confused and doesn't know where to begin their offensive move. The most common one is when they are facing a well balance defensive formation. For example, I defend a hill at the edge of the map. I set up in a "U" shape formation with 3 sides. On all 3 sides, I have 3 spear and 2 missiles in the same formation (2 spear in front, 1 backup spear in thin formation behind the front 2 spears, and 2 archers behind the spears). Usually when facing these kind of balance formation, the AI doesn't seems to be able to figure out where to attack. It seems that the chance of losing is the same for all 3 sides and the AI can't decide. In this case, the AI just simply line up very close, continuously moving and shifting troops, getting shot at until either they run away or I make some move.

Well, that's just my observation during the last 2 campaigns. There wasn't enough cases where the AI have to attack my well balance deffensive line without strong troops to break the line or enough missiles to win the shoot out.

[Brutal DLX]

You're all a bunch of turtles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[HopAlongBunny]

The AI's ability seems quite variable. I have had some very good battles against the 'puter. But most of the time the AI is pretty goofy.

The thing that drives me up the wall, is the run til you drop defence the AI likes to use. AI camps one hilltop, sets up a nice defence-you advance and the AI abandons that position and runs to the next corner of the map-repeat process til all corners of map have been visited. The final stand (back where it all started) is usually a slaughter, it just takes sooo long to get to the final act

[Tyrac]

I think the AI needs some sort of a flank to attack. If you turtle on the map edge the AI will only charge if they have elite style units and a big obvious advantage. The reason the units run back and forth just in bow range is that it is looking for a flank to open up.

For this reason I try to avoid using the map edge to make my flanks perfectly safe.

--In a real battle there is NO map edge. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif --

It is hard on alot of maps though. Many of the maps seem to be made for defending the edge and any other position is worthless.

The AI can beat you if you do not use the map edge. If you want hard battles and do not mind loseing from time to time then make sure you leave some space between the map edge and your flank.

[Bhruic]

The way I like to look at it is the "map edge" is really where the rest of my troops are guarding... You know, the ones that in a "real" battle I wouldn't have to wait until one of my units routed before I could bring on to the field. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Just for variety, on a flat map, I used a full-circle defense. The enemy had almost as much problem, but this time it actually had some units randomly wander into my defenders. This wasn't an attack, just some units going astray... Right into my troops. I guess they need some better scouts.

Bh

[Elmo]

If defending a province and badly outnumbered I'll set up on a hill if available. Even then I will often charge down it when the bad guys get close enough. Going turtle isn't my idea of fun.

HopAlong wrote: "The thing that drives me up the wall, is the run til you drop defence the AI likes to use. AI camps one hilltop, sets up a nice defence-you advance and the AI abandons that position and runs to the next corner of the map-repeat process til all corners of map have been visited. The final stand (back where it all started) is usually a slaughter, it just takes sooo long to get to the final act"

I haven't seen this since the patch. As the Turks I had a fight the other night with the Byzants. They stayed on their hill and only came off with their foot soldiers after I peppered them with arrows. Their cavalry stayed put and made me go up to get them. I tried but they charged as I got close and my guys routed. Great fun.

[Nobunaga0611]

Quote[/b] (HopAlongBunny @ Feb. 14 2003,06:57)]The AI's ability seems quite variable. I have had some very good battles against the 'puter. But most of the time the AI is pretty goofy.

The thing that drives me up the wall, is the run til you drop defence the AI likes to use. AI camps one hilltop, sets up a nice defence-you advance and the AI abandons that position and runs to the next corner of the map-repeat process til all corners of map have been visited. The final stand (back where it all started) is usually a slaughter, it just takes sooo long to get to the final act
Yeah I've seen this, and recently. For me it usually happens when I have a strong army with a good general, I think the AI gets scared. By strong army I mean a solid front line with some good sword units, some missles, and a good mix of cav. A lot of the time my armies just consist of whatever units are lying around.

[sassbarman]

I think the part where you mention defending on a hill and the ai will just parade it troops infront of you and then march back to their original position is actually a decent tactic. I think what they're trying to do is lure you off the hill by charging after that parading unit/s onto flat ground where you lose your uphill bonus. The problem is once you figure that out you never fall for it again and it simply turns into the ai parading its units for you to shoot up with your archers.