View Full Version : Military Acad., University & College of Surgeons
It seems very strange that you can build only one of these when these building aren't even labelled as "UNIQUE" in the crusader_build_prod13.txt file?
The Chancellery, Constables Palace, Marshall's Palace and the Admirality are all "Unique" buildings and it's understandable since they imply leadership bonuses, etc.
The Cathedral and Grand Mosque are also stated as "Unique" buildings and this is the confusing part....... the University requires the Cathedral and then the Military Acad & College of Surgeons have the University/Grand Mosque as a prerequisite. Is this the way it is supposed to be, or is this an oversight? Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be very logical from the perspective of the Military Academy.
One thing for sure, none of these buildings have features that would significantly point towards the need for being "Unique". The Military ACademy gives all units a +1 discipline, whatever that means, and this would seem like an ability that should be applicable to several provinces.
Additionally, the Turks get completely shafted because the Military Acad is only able to be built in the province with the University/Grand Mosque. All the Turkish Janissary units require the Military Academy and therefore this restriction severely lowers the amount of Jannisary units they're able to build. Plus, if you think the human player will be stuffed by this, just imagine how this will affect the Turkish AI
Anyone offer any semblence of reasoning to this?
Red Harvest
02-12-2003, 19:17
Thanks for the info...I'm midway into a Turkish high period campaign and did not realize that I could only have one Grand Mosque and one Military Academy. Just finished the GM in Constantinople...looks like it is going to be quite some time before I have any Jannissaries...and then only a few. With as long as it takes and as much as it costs to build everything (including the units themselves) it would make more sense to upgrade several provinces to citadel instead. Three really good troop factories are far better than a single excellent troop factory--especially if it takes an extra 32 years or so to get it (you know what they say: "time is florins.") Even JHI have flanks and a rear.
I Wouldn't agree that the Turks get shafted by having to build the required structures. When you compare against some of the Catholic nations that have high-end elite units such as Lancers, Gothic Knights and Gothic Sergents, the Turks have it better. Look at all the buildings required to make Gothic knights, then consider your statement.
Your comparing Elite units, I'd say the Turks got things a slight bit better. After the Academy is done, you can tear down the Grand Mosque and build in another province is you desire Janissaries from a new location. Personally though, I don't find this necessary because I prepare another army before hand that follows my Kings stack around the map. This second stack has replacement troops should my Kings army suffer losses in battle. In this manner, I don't have to return to Rum to restrengthen my main army.
I hear what you're saying Praylak and in many ways the subtle hindrances don't really affect the human player too much. Like you say, simply tear down the Grand Mosque and buils it elsewhere...
However, take it from the perspective of the AI... how many Janissary troops have you seen the Turkish AI build?? I bet it's almost zero.
For this game to be a success it's not simply about how easy it is for the human player to build and utilise the various types, it's about facing them in the AI's armies too. Without that there is no challenge.
At least with the Gothic knights one can build them in more than one province, if you can tech up that far.
Red Harvest
02-13-2003, 01:00
Quote[/b] (Praylak @ Feb. 12 2003,12:32)]I Wouldn't agree that the Turks get shafted by having to build the required structures. When you compare against some of the Catholic nations that have high-end elite units such as Lancers, Gothic Knights and Gothic Sergents, the Turks have it better. Look at all the buildings required to make Gothic knights, then consider your statement.
Your comparing Elite units, I'd say the Turks got things a slight bit better. After the Academy is done, you can tear down the Grand Mosque and build in another province is you desire Janissaries from a new location. Personally though, I don't find this necessary because I prepare another army before hand that follows my Kings stack around the map. This second stack has replacement troops should my Kings army suffer losses in battle. In this manner, I don't have to return to Rum to restrengthen my main army.
First, I'm not saying that the Turks get shafted. I'm just considering some differences here. However, I don't see them having it that much better. You still have to tech up mightily to get these elite Jannissary units, and only from
one province. I'm not certain that you can get JHI without the Grand Mosque--I'll have to wait until I can get some and destroy to see if they are still available. Even if I could, the time interval before it is even possible to get JHI in a 2nd province will be on the order of 26 years. You have to build in series rather than parallel. So it's like 16 years for the Grand Mosque and another 10 for the academy after the first one. In that time you have missed building 13 units of JHI, and an opponent could build 26 units of knights, etc. from their 2nd province (parallel building path.) Gets worse if they have 3 or more provinces.
And as has been said, the AI is really going to suffer. The AI rarely has advanced units unless it has a loyalist revolt or something.
Comparing available troops, the Turks are blessed with some nice units fairly early, but most are archer/skirmishers. They do get some mid range cavalry pretty early, but they lack arbalests If Turks dismount cav they get Saracen Infantry rather than Footknights--not a match up I care for. Christian factions have far better infantry available as well if you discount JHI (because it takes 2 years to build each one and limitation to one province.) I'm not claiming that the Turks should have better or different units, etc. but I admit I'm surprised at how difficult it is to get Jannissary by comparison. (Understand that I LIKE the different pros/cons of available unit types for factions and the tactical/strategic differences they require--but the JHI building restrictions do seem a bit harsh, particularly for the AI.)
Red Harvest
02-13-2003, 05:59
To follow up a bit. I did some testing in custom battles. Used temperate "steppeinland01" map set on "normal", and all units set to valour 2 and armour 3 (no weapon upgrade as the units I tested are unlikely to come from a metalsmith province--but are likely to have pretty good armour and morale upgrades.) Even intentionally avoiding flanking, two units of CMAA overloaded a single unit of JHI. Considering how easy it is to get high quality CMAA vs. JHI, this is a rather telling comparison.
Also tested a single CMAA vs. single Saracen Infantry. The match up is roughly even although choice of formation/charge, etc. will determine outcome except for random effects of intitial charge, or random death of a general on either side. This is an important match up as the Saracen is the backbone of the Turkish army. Also tested three CMAA vs. two SI (180 men vs. 200.) SI lose that match up no matter which side I tried or how I approached the attack (even avoiding flanking when using 3 vs. 2). Feudal/chivalric *foot* knights have a hard time vs. the SI...a very hard time because of the disparity in unit sizes. However, if you compared dismounted heavy Turkish cav (40 Saracens) to foot knights (40 men) it is no contest in favor of the foot knights. And from horseback even the best Turkish cav are outclassed by heavy western knights (as they should be).
Tested the Ghazi Infantry (supposedly "heavy" infantry.) They are such lightweights. Standard urban militia was about even, while simple militia seargeants crushed them, and CMAA slaughtered them. Ghazi's poor defense and lighter armour puts them at a serious disadvantage.
What does all this mean? It means that with the same number of men on the field, equal commanders, and equal upgrade/valour, the Turks will be overloaded and they will lose.
Am I saying that the Turkish units are bad, historically innacurate, etc.? Do I want them altered? NO and NO From what I gather in historical reading/discussions they were not as heavily armoured and had difficulty going toe-to-toe with the Christian men-at-arms and knights. However, the one unit that holds a lot of promise (JHI) is very difficult to get, takes 2 years to build and can only be had in one province (without some "slight of hand" with building construction and even that would require a 26 year delay--no small measure.) The JHI appear to be a non-factor in most cases because of their rarity. I actually like the Turks because of the speed and quality of their skirmishers/archers and the availability of decent mid-range cavalry. You can do some neat things with them.
Very astute reasoning there Red Harvest.
The way i've currently combatted this is to make the Military Academy require, in addition to a Castle13, a Mosque and Royal Palace instead of a Grand Mosque. Likewise for the Christians, who only really benefit from the +1 discipline (an effect i'm not clear on) i've made it require a Church and Royal Palace.
This way it'll still require the Fortress, which in itself is no easy feat, but at least they'll be able to have more than one. As a result I'm hoping i'll then be facing tougher AI Turkish troops, produced from provinces rather than obtained through Jihads.
Brutal DLX
02-13-2003, 11:50
Hi,
bear in mind that if you play such a faction, you have to adapt your strategies accordingly. Surely your men will lose infights with heavily armoured Catholic units, unless you make good use of your speed and the fact that many are skirmishers. Use that You don't need lots of JHI to win. They are Elite and should be used sparingly. Just like Varangian guardsmen. I always shake my head when people write "I attacked with my 16 VG blah blah.."
After all, it is still possible to beat any army with any faction, and that's what matters.
You're still missing the main point of what all this is about....
... the AI
When have you ever seen the AI with JHI? Like i said, the human can make the best use of the tech tree depending on which faction they are. For instance, if you are the Turks then any clever human player will beeline for the Janissary troops, if you're the Spanish the Lancers, etc, etc. The more complicated one makes the tech tree the more advantages the human player will have over the AI. As the Turks, i doubt the AI will recognise the importance of heading for the Janissary troops and likewise the Spanish for their Lancers.
SO, by making the Military Academy difficult to build in the tech tree (Cathedral - University - MA) and a "one" province wonder, the AI is even more unlikely to reach this destination. Therefore, although simplifying the tech tree somewhat aids the human player, it'll do much more for the AI, or at least that's my take on it all.
If, for example, you make Spearmen and Archers available with a simple fort, then the AI won't build as many peasants. The only reason the AI builds peasants is because they'll own provinces with only a fort in them and in these provinces there's no other unit type to build.
Divine Wind
02-13-2003, 15:22
Only time i have ever seen the AI with JHI is when they get them through jihads in the late era. Only 1 or 2 units though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Quote[/b] (+DOC+ @ Feb. 13 2003,04:29)]Very astute reasoning there Red Harvest.
The way i've currently combatted this is to make the Military Academy require, in addition to a Castle13, a Mosque and Royal Palace instead of a Grand Mosque. Likewise for the Christians, who only really benefit from the +1 discipline (an effect i'm not clear on) i've made it require a Church and Royal Palace.
This way it'll still require the Fortress, which in itself is no easy feat, but at least they'll be able to have more than one. As a result I'm hoping i'll then be facing tougher AI Turkish troops, produced from provinces rather than obtained through Jihads.
Quote[/b] ][...]This way it'll still require the Fortress, which in itself is no easy feat, [...]
A little of topic but it isn't that hard to get a fortress In my current campaign; Romans (Byz), Expert, Early; the year is 1352 and I have Fortress' with Culverin Towers in Milan, Genoa, Venice, (the province in here I can't remeber the name of), Serbia, Bulgaria, Crymea, Georgia and Sicily, and a Fortress with Siege Cannon in Constantinople. That's only 2/3rds of the way into the game, still nearly 100 years to go.
But yes, the other parts are pretty hard to get unless you solely concentrate on building that line of structures... something I tend to do anyway.
Cheers.
"The way i've currently combatted this is to make the Military Academy require, in addition to a Castle13, a Mosque and Royal Palace instead of a Grand Mosque. Likewise for the Christians, who only really benefit from the +1 discipline (an effect i'm not clear on) i've made it require a Church and Royal Palace."
DOC, I assumed the +1 discipline was the equivalent to the drill dojo of Shogun:MI, which gave discipline (NOT a morale bonus?), supposedly this helps routing troops reform. I didn't find it much use in Shogun and rarely built it, but the AI seemed to love it (but then it routed a lot more). I haven't seen the Military Academy much in MTW (only the Byzantines AI has ever built it in my experience).
"The more complicated one makes the tech tree the more advantages the human player will have over the AI. As the Turks, i doubt the AI will recognise the importance of heading for the Janissary troops and likewise the Spanish for their Lancers."
This is obviously true. Have you considered Turbo's suggestion of chain linking the AI build probabiilities, through modding the column 11 AI building influences for building combos? I think his suggestion of adding 500 to the build probabiility for each link in the chain would help the AI with the more complicated structures.
Example: castle -> adds spearmaker(500), -> spearmaker adds armorer(500) and so on, until you have castle13 + military academy. With enough trade income, the AI would then have a much increased probability of completing the chain of buildings necessary to make advanced units. I've thought about doing this, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.
Suggestions anyone?
Brutal DLX
02-14-2003, 12:30
Don't bitch that much about the AI, it does tech up, providing it has enough money. The small factions will probably never get that far, but superpowers always tech up nicely. I once played a campaign where the Almohads conquered Spain and then by 1320 had a fortress and Metalsmith in each province. It is no fun to fight against AUM then, I can tell you.
It boils down to what you want, of course the human player goes for the special units, it's fun, but even though they are good, they aren't essential to win. That's the point. I don't mind if the AI attacks me with JHI or normal stuff, chances are I'll win anyway. If you really can't live without the AI getting the absolute high-end units, either start in late and let them build or try to mod the files according to some suggestion here. I think it should be possible with some experimenting.
High-end elite units are a rare sight for the AI. I really think this is the result of the AI not being able to adequately defend itself or at least choice provinces that are trying to tech up high enough. It's defienelty, strictly an AI issue in any case.
We all know the damage an invading army can cause, and to tech up high enough to build some of these units requires a great deal of money and time. Both of which the AI doesn't seem to provide for. When they do get big and own many provinces the budget is there. Again though, the AI drops the ball. It keeps it's taxes too high, and the inner provinces garrisons too low to compensate. It doesn't use agents to alleviate this either. In just a matter of time, rebellions pop of all over. So much for that Fortress.
The AI on the startegy map seems quite simple in comparison to the tactical map. It's just a stack mover. Shoves more than enough stacks necessary to the front leaving it's inner provinces practicly naked. I don't think the AI can see certian elements in the game.
I can recall one game where the Almohads had 8 full stacks in a single border province with an ally that had only a single half stack. It sat there for 25 years until internal rebellions forced them to relocate. Now what is the point in that. The AI should be able to realize that it only needed a fraction of what it had and the money would have been better spent on development.
Red Harvest
02-14-2003, 23:11
Adding to Praylak's thoughts on the strategy problem and why the AI won't produce elites in quantity:
1. AI won't leave sufficient defensive forces in some key high tech provinces. Watch two AI factions duke it out. They end up trading their best provinces back and forth and one rarely ever finishes off the other. How often do the Egyptians give up Egypt early in a campaign? Ditto for the Byzantines with Constantinople and the Turks with Rum.
2. AI will throw everything but the kitchen sink at an invader who took a piece of property on the previous turn, leaving the rest to be plundered/revolt.
3. KEY PROBLEM: AI does not plan for inevitable drops in loyalty from events such as a) King dies b) Excommunication c) lost Crusade/Jihad d) low loyalty generals starting a civil war e) low loyalty rebellious provinces f) King getting cut off. The lack of adequate garrisons leads to revolts. Frequently there are ZERO units in a province--that's just nuts Tax rate is not the problem. I run taxes at very high throughout the game--that actually gives me room to reduce taxes should loyalty drop--I would have far greater trouble on low taxes should an event result in reduced loyalty.
4. AI won't establish trade and keeps old obsolete units around (and builds even more obsolete units, duhhhh.) This is a tremendous drag on the economy and the AI runs out of money and ends up with an aging army of fixed size. After that it can't afford to build elite units. It also fails to retrain low armour/reduced number units (something to do when money is tight.) Don't know about others, but I get rid of obsolete units in castle assaults, as bait, or disband them unless they have a high acumen leader (governor.) In a few turns the reduced upkeep can be used to pay for a much better unit.
Those are all excellent points Red Harvest. All have been made previously, but it's nice to see them stated together like that.
Some of the problems, such as the AI trade problems are probably solveable. It just takes a little bit of thought and effort.
1. AI won't leave sufficient defensive forces in some key high tech provinces. Watch two AI factions duke it out. They end up trading their best provinces back and forth and one rarely ever finishes off the other.
There's nothing we can do about this. It's a hard coding problem. I increased the money of the AI factions to virtually unlimited and the AI still did this. It had large numbers of huge stacks, but it still treated them the same way. It would move them all into one province and leave the others bare (resulting in big rebellions). Even the dullest human player would realize "if I move 7,000 troops out of Wessex and leave the taxes on very high I'm going to have a rebellion problem next turn."
2. Same problem. Nothing we can do about it.
3. Ditto.
4. "4. AI won't establish trade and keeps old obsolete units around (and builds even more obsolete units, duhhhh.) This is a tremendous drag on the economy and the AI runs out of money and ends up with an aging army of fixed size. After that it can't afford to build elite units. It also fails to retrain low armour/reduced number units (something to do when money is tight.) Don't know about others, but I get rid of obsolete units in castle assaults, as bait, or disband them unless they have a high acumen leader (governor.) In a few turns the reduced upkeep can be used to pay for a much better unit."
AI trade has been a constant theme in the Dungeon. I'm convinced that Wes W. is on to something with his mod. Maybe static fleets to help out the AI would improve this problem. If the AI had more money and if we modded the build_prod and unit_prod files to make the AI build more high tech units, this problem can be addressed as well. If the AI built high tech armies it would put up more of a challenge. You say that you would win anyway even if you had to fight large numbers of say, lancers, varangian guards, JHI or gothic knights with morale, weapons and armor bonuses? I think it would be a constant battle of atttition that would be very tough. There would be no easy battles against armies like that. A very different game.
Red HArvest,
That is the best sum-up of MTW i've ever heard...
totally agree.
Red Harvest
02-15-2003, 20:10
Quote[/b] (cugel @ Feb. 14 2003,18:51)]You say that you would win anyway even if you had to fight large numbers of say, lancers, varangian guards, JHI or gothic knights with morale, weapons and armor bonuses? I think it would be a constant battle of atttition that would be very tough. There would be no easy battles against armies like that. A very different game.
Cugel,
I realize that you posed this as a hypothetical rather than addressing my post directly, but I like the comment. In my case I'm sure I would have a *very* tough time of it if most AI armies had a nice balance of upgraded and elite units later in the game. The toughest AI faction for me to eliminate is often Hungary or Spain because the AI does make good use of metalsmiths found in provinces they often hold. I target those provinces whenever opportunity allows. On expert, fighting AI armies with lots of high end cav, varangian guards, foot knights, order foot, italian infanty, etc. under a decent general is quite tough. Those battles are often two turn attrition affairs. The first turn I send in a good army that gets beaten, but decimates the best AI troops. The second turn gives me a substantial advantage.
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