Help in the desert

[Jabberwock]

I'd appreciate a bit of help if anyone can give it...

Last night I was attempting to play a campaign (with the English) to its bitter end by taking the Middle East (only the Turks remaining).
I'm having difficulty finding a combination of troops that are good in the desert when attacking. By the time my troops get to the other end of the map, they're knackered despite moving at a sedate pace (OK so it's a bit warm I guess). I've resisted the temptation to use the most heavily armoured knights etc, but even the archers were whacked out.
I've got to the top of the tech tree, but I'm not sure that's an advantage.
I was wondering whether using my older high valour troops would be better as they're less likely to rout when they finally get the oppotunity to attack.

I seem to be feeding my troops in to a grinder at the moment.

[Praylak]

hehehe, welcome to the desert.

Leave your heavily armoured army at home, and hire some mercenaries local to the area built for desert warfare. A few good units in the desert are Camel warriers, Saharan Cavalry, Muwhawid Foot, etc.

[Kraxis]

Bring light troops (archers and Longbows) and anticavalry (Billmen). Kerns are also a great unit for the desert because of their cheap cost and light armour, you can field massive numbers of these. Gallowglasses and Highlanders are good choices as well because of their light armour. And make sure to bring some light cav such as Jinettes (a long wish haha) or Alans.

[Red Harvest]

It's been awhile since I was playing as Christian factions in the desert, but here are some of the things I learned the hard way:
1. Your units are inferior in the desert, use strategy to win because it will be tough to win on the battlefield.
2. Naval superiority is a must--hit 'em where they ain't. Hit in rear regions so they have to come chase you down.
3. Strike many provinces at once by sea. If you launch 4 naval assaults, chances are that the AI will only be able to muster an overpowering army vs. 1 or 2. It's up to you as to whether to fight the larger forces, but you already have a couple of "easy wins", regardless.
4. Now that you have a few provinces under siege (hopefully with some fine generals trapped) you get to defend. This is far better than attack for the Western units, since the desert units must come to you now while your arbalests blast away at them. Standard techniques should work. Use arbalests to keep pesky horse archers and the like from running you ragged. You won't win by chasing horse archers, camels, desert archers, and Saharan cav around the desert.
5. Your *offensive* forces should be light. Old high valour units lacking much in the way of armour upgrades are the best in my experience. Anything with "white" armour tires pretty rapidly. I actually build light forces from recently acquired provinces with morale boosting buildings and low armour (usually "gray")--all just for desert attacks.
6. Light cav is good in the desert, but you need to kill the camels with archers/arbalests or spears before you can engage your light cav. Camels are hell on all kinds of horse cav. Fast units are good--because the desert units are fast and you don't want to have to charge just to keep up.
7. I rarely buy mercs. but that is one way to get an appropriate force. Bulgarian brigands are handy in the desert (fast). Militia seargants might be good--I've noticed the AI is very effective with them, but not sure how they do in the desert.
8. Attack and withdraw if needed to wear your enemy down. If you whip the first wave out of 3000 men, but your guys are all exhausted, it is probably best to withdraw from the field rather than face 2000 "fresh" peasants and desert archers. A high star general won't suffer much from a single orderly withdrawal, but losing him can be catastrophic (the "withdraw from battle" command is a lifesaver and the AI often uses it.) Afterall, you probably killed his best general or made a "good runner" of him. The next time you face the army it's strongest unis will be gone, and you will probably be able to sweep right over it.
9. Kill your prisoners unless you need the money. No sense giving them back their troops in a battle of attrition.

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ Feb. 17 2003,13:45)]9. Kill your prisoners unless you need the money. No sense giving them back their troops in a battle of attrition.
Bad idea after you have done it one time, after that you will begin to lose Morale, and then the troops might not want to fight long enough for you (if you take my meaning).

[hoom]

Also ransoming can bankrupt the enemy and avoid reinforcements.

[rasoforos]

Red harvest's strategy is the best and its cool as it is. Ransoming back is NOT a good idea if you ask me because the bigger the desert armies the longer the battle lasts and the worse it becomes for western troups. My own experience tells me that is practically hopeless to expecto your knights and chivalric MAA to survive in the desert , they get tired just by being there. As Red harvest said you have to hit the enemy from the sea where he least expects it. If you do not have enough troops to occupy the areas you hit then just use a looting policy and wreak havoc in his reach provinces. the 'mercenaries' tip is a good idea but to my experience you end up bordering a mid-desert enemy province with a good 4-5.000 enemies , sometimes more. This is gonna need A LOT of mercs and its not worth it.

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Feb. 17 2003,15:22)]
Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ Feb. 17 2003,13:45)]9. Kill your prisoners unless you need the money. No sense giving them back their troops in a battle of attrition.
Bad idea after you have done it one time, after that you will begin to lose Morale, and then the troops might not want to fight long enough for you (if you take my meaning).
There was an interesting post by Husar today. He says that if you kill the prisoners before the battle ends, it will be interpreted as motivated by fear of losing. However, if you only kill them after the battle, i.e. once you get the screen with the victory conditions, you'll get "Scant mercy" and the like, which is a good thing.

His post is in the "Ransoming back corpses" thread.

[Red Harvest]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Feb. 17 2003,15:22)]
Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ Feb. 17 2003,13:45)]9. Kill your prisoners unless you need the money. No sense giving them back their troops in a battle of attrition.
Bad idea after you have done it one time, after that you will begin to lose Morale, and then the troops might not want to fight long enough for you (if you take my meaning).
Point 9 was a bit of oversimplificition and won't work in all circumstances. Let me clarify: I'm primarily talking about the early big pivotal battles in a major desert showdown. Later on, after the good troops and best generals are gone, it isn't necessary/useful. It is usually hard to bankrupt the AI muslim factions in the first few turns of a war in my experience, and I don't mind reducing the effectiveness of my star general if it keeps him alive or if it is pivotal to allowing follow up attacks. The AI can go deep into the hole ransoming their king, etc and get back an army that they would not have been able to build anyway. If I'm withdrawing exhausted in a narrowly lost battle, I'll likely kill the prisoners I have because they are most likely pretty good troops that I don't want to face again. I usually won't have to do it more than once per general although sometimes I'll take the hit and do it again with the same general. I also kill all prisoners when it looks like my general is about to run...or is running (whoever is left is going to get "good runner" anyway so it doesn't matter after that.) Interestingly, I've found killing prisoners at such times often turns the tide in my favor...not sure why. I'm not a kill 'em all, all the time type and rarely kill prisoners except in situations like the desert or when losing. It's a judgement call, particularly if I'm spread thin hitting a lot of points at once. If I can get rid of the remnants of high quality, high valor units in one fell swoop, I do it since it aids in the war of attrition. I rarely buy back my own prisoners.

I don't like going on pillage and burn romps because the loyalist revolts are typically three stacks of high grade troops. I always try to have enough troops available land the next turn to garrison/absorb a counterattack.

I rarely carry much more than a single full stack into battle because the reinforcements typically arrive too late or too tired to be effective. I'll carry a few horse archers/mounted crossbow/light cavalry into battle as reinforcments at times to move rapidly to the the point of trouble, but this is rarely useful.

Anyway, there are multiple strategies that can be used, but make sure you do things consistent with your strategy.

[desdichado]

Quote[/b] (Cazbol @ Feb. 18 2003,08:35)]There was an interesting post by Husar today. He says that if you kill the prisoners before the battle ends, it will be interpreted as motivated by fear of losing. However, if you only kill them after the battle, i.e. once you get the screen with the victory conditions, you'll get "Scant mercy" and the like, which is a good thing.

His post is in the "Ransoming back corpses" thread.
I think it is the other way around. When you kill prisoners after the battle your men miss out on the ransom money and lose morale. Killing prisoners during battle gives your general dread but I have not seen any negative morale modifiers from this action therefore I usually try to kill prisoners mid battle.

Also, can anyone explain why armour upgrades cause your men to tire quicker. The way I see it the upgrades don't give your men more armour, just better quality - light infantry is still light infantry just with better made armour. The actual amount of armour should still roughly be the same. On the same note, how do you make a heavily armoured knight with even heavier armour - there is a point at which he or the horse could not move under the weight (let alone lift his sword).

I have not had too many fights with catholic factions in the desert but at least in Europe I have not really seen my upgraded troops tire quicker than unupgraded. Does anyone actually know the right answer
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Kraxis]

Executing enemies goes like this:
Scant Mercy: 1 Dread
No Mercy: 2 Dread -1 Morale
Merciless: 2 Dread -2 Morale
Secret Blood Lover
and Blood Lover (actually not the worst Vices)
and if you execute 1000 enemies you get the Vice Butcher which gives +3 Dread.

But those Vices comes almost always after you have executed enemy troops. So you would need to do it at least four times before you up to the good Vices... By then your troops might not want to fight on any more.

While you are right troops get better armour the gameengine can't destinguish that, it can only see the Armourlevel go up. And the higher number in the Armour department means faster fatigue, not matter it be upgrades or inherent.

[desdichado]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Feb. 18 2003,11:31)]While you are right troops get better armour the gameengine can't destinguish that, it can only see the Armourlevel go up. And the higher number in the Armour department means faster fatigue, not matter it be upgrades or inherent.
Kraxis,

Thanks for reply. hadn't though answer might be in programming but i still don't see why game engine can't distinguish. Why can't fatigue be based on troop type or its base armour settings. I am not a programmer but I can't see how hard that would be?

Only a minor complaint I know.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ligur]

I know the feeling having fough extended campaigns in the middle east. I was also playing England and crusading like no tomorrow, fighting all kinds of desert battles.


Some more on troop types:

-Turcopoles:
These guys do everything. As I was able to hold on into some provinces and establish small Christian kindoms there I churned out the local horsearchers, namely the Turcopoles. Just hold on into a province or two and build them. These are very good versus camels. After I got these guys I didn't have to worry about them damn camel riders anymore, I just went close with my faster horses and released volleys of arrows untill the targeted camel unit became a non factor. They might fire back though but hey, pick on the non archers ones first. When you are outta arrows, pull back to bring fresh in guys. Apparently there aren't any Muslem units that can catch Turcopoles either. Turcopoles also dispatch any enemy infantry archer units, and can run them over in melee. Stops them damn desert archers and whatnot from picking out your infantry and general. So fun I started using them on other fronts too.

-Mounted Sargeants:
Light cav which usually turns out to be as effective as knights since they can go on without too much wear from the heat. They really don't seem to mind. Very important to supplement the Turcopoles so you can use these two units (camel's still can't catch 'em) to mess up the AI formations and pick when and where you want to engage. Really good for running over units weakened by Turcopoles or for the last charge when you rout the enemy... He will lose most of his troops since these guys still aren't too tired to run over some routing Janissaries. Alan Mercs and Hobilars can perform the same role, Mountes Sgt's just seem the most solid. Spanish Jinettes if you can get them.

-Gallowglasses, Kerns and Highland clansmen:
Your shock infantry. Gallowglasses die in droves but also tear through the local infantry. Like paper. Rrrrrriiip. Kerns and Highland clansmen provide fodder, close range volleys and such.

Throw in some longbows, billmen and spearmen (CS's and CMA's just croak over from the heat, as do all knights, tho knighs and especially foot knights can execute a solid defence even in the sun) and eventually you will master the Turkish menace. Of course you'll need to do all the things previously mentioned like huge naval invasions that aim on pillaging etc.

[Red Harvest]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Feb. 17 2003,19:31)]Executing enemies goes like this:
Scant Mercy: 1 Dread
No Mercy: 2 Dread -1 Morale
Merciless: 2 Dread -2 Morale
Secret Blood Lover
and Blood Lover (actually not the worst Vices)
and if you execute 1000 enemies you get the Vice Butcher which gives +3 Dread.
That's really not much penalty. The first mass execution is "free", the second gets a slap on the wrist, and the third has a bit of a punch. So if the general is 6 or 7 star (+3 morale) the -2 morale is not catastrophic. He wouldn't be useful against a good general like that, but he will be OK with weaker ones. If I've found it necessary to "off" three full sets of prisoners with the same general, then the chances are that he would not have survived had he faced those same troops again in counterattacks...

If another spree gets "blood lover" and the -2 morale hit goes away, then it would be easy to pick your battles and survive a brief period of -2. Been a long time since I had that vice...need to experiment.

[Jabberwock]

Thanks guys. Glad I'm not the only one who's "standard" tactics needed a re-think with desert. The help i smuch appreciated. Time to experiment a little more... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kristaps]

Hehe, one way to play with the prisoner killing vices is to kill off peasant rebels... Some excellent provinces to do that are: Portugal, Livonia, and Scottland. Just leave 100 garnizon after conquering those, build just a fort, raise taxes to max and wait for rebellions to flood in http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif) Can raise bloodlust of any general in no time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)

As to -2 morale: the vice is pretty bad actually... The general's stars affect the morale only if the troops are near-by. Troops that have been taken further away by the tide of the battle are on their own and thus suffer to the full extent from the vice -2 morale penalty while receiving no boost from the stars. This might be enough to rout the lower morale troops and once they run there is no knowing who might join...

As to Chivalric Sergeants tiring in the desert: I have observed the same. However, I am puzzled by one thing: Chivalric Sergeants have EXACTLY the same stats as Saracen Infantry which are supposedly (by description) good for desert warfare... Or, am I missing something?

[Jabberwock]

Woohoo

Sinai and Tripoli have fallen

The MVPs so far appear to be Jinettes and Steppe Cavalry (with able assistance from mounted sergeants) all as little armour upgrades as possible. Very little in the way of foot appears to be reqd, as the AI doesn't want to use skirmishers hand to hand until they're out of arrows. Longbowmen and arbs make mincemeat af lightly armoured turks. The tables are turned. Maybe I will paint the map red after all...

[burma_mtw]

Brits in the desert. The Hoblers (or whatever they are called) seem less bothered by the heat then other English Units.

The following comment does not diminish the value of preceding recommendations:

The tactic that works for me (Brits in the desert) is to throw so many troops into the province that the enemy does not fight. If you are late in the game (the only time I go into the desert as a Brit) very large armies should be no problem. Of course, by this time you should own the seas so you can pick weak provinces easily.

[LordKhaine]

Just remember if you're defending in the desert, you can get away with using heavy infantry. Since you wont be going anywhere... you can use those heavier spear troops as a solid wall for defence.

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Feb. 17 2003,21:22)]
Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ Feb. 17 2003,13:45)]9. Kill your prisoners unless you need the money. No sense giving them back their troops in a battle of attrition.
Bad idea after you have done it one time, after that you will begin to lose Morale, and then the troops might not want to fight long enough for you (if you take my meaning).
Also, another point, you should especially ransom back prisoners in the first battles, because if you kill them, chances are the AI faction (being in the southeast and very rich) will build newer and better units than it had as part of its standing army. So by all means sell them back the peasants and general light stuff, that will handcuff him some more. Once you gained a relatively secure foothold in that area, you can start executing the prisoners if you feel like you will get overwhelmed otherwise (eg. when you have trouble reinforcing your own army down there...)

[Red Harvest]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 19 2003,03:16)]
Also, another point, you should especially ransom back prisoners in the first battles, because if you kill them, chances are the AI faction (being in the southeast and very rich) will build newer and better units than it had as part of its standing army. So by all means sell them back the peasants and general light stuff, that will handcuff him some more. Once you gained a relatively secure foothold in that area, you can start executing the prisoners if you feel like you will get overwhelmed otherwise (eg. when you have trouble reinforcing your own army down there...)[/QUOTE]
I still disagree for a number of reasons. My experience is you can't bankrupt them in the first wave by ransoming unless you capture the king (highly unlikely in the first wave), so you will still be facing some upgraded troops produced in later rounds. I blitzkrieg the AI and select a mix of provinces to divide up the AI's territories and take out high value provinces if reasonable. This often leads to rebellions/civil wars for the AI in cut off regions. Plus I try to knock out 1-2 of the more fearsome unit producing/money making provinces in the first wave. If I kill 500 prisoners the AI will have to build at least 5 units to make up for it, and they will be spread out. By getting rid of the 500, I put the AI on the defensive and in reactive mode. As long as I have the initiative, the end is a foregone conclusion. By spotting the AI 500 troops for example, and knowing that the AI will STILL build more on the following turn (because my experience is that they won't be bankrupt that early) I would be vulnerable to a stronger counterattack (I know there will be a counterattack, but I want it to be smaller.) So my strategy is based on retaining the intiative. I'm not claiming other strategies are worse, but I'm staying consistent with my strategy. One of the main reasons I try to maintain the initiative: powerful muslim factions that have survived late in the game typically have a number of "skilled/expert attacker" type generals and perhaps a sprinkling of "weak defender". I've been mauled by these attacker guys before...so I want to make it harder for them to assemble a reasonable sized force. In my experience, ransoming back large numbers causes my offensive to stall.

Every desert campaign is different and there are several themes that I use at different times, but not others, much of it depending on AI troop concentrations and general/king locations as well as ports/shipyards, and of course what units/generals/agents are available to me:
1. Carve up the AI provinces in sections to encourage rebellions/civil wars on following turns.
2. Trap the king (encourages civil wars or a sudden end to organized resistance if he has no heir.)
3. Target a specific low income, low upgrade province to draw in attackers, realizing that it will probably be lost in the counterattack, BUT it will expose surrounding high value targets to attack.
4. Be careful not to lose a high upgrade/high income province to counterattack (that would lose high value buildings). For example: Sometimes it is best to attack such provinces early to hold them(and perhaps adjacent provinces simultaneously to produce a "screen" from counterattack.) Sometimes it is best to attack them as a follow up, when forces are depleted.
5. Hit one end of the AI's realm, then hammer the other end as the AI transfers its troops.
6. Keep in mind money will be gained from initial plunder allowing reinforcement production/upgrades for follow up waves, and denying the enemy income and reinforcements.
7. I do castle assaults whenever reasonable to a) get money/control earlier against a small garrison b) increase my general's stats c) prevent loss of a 1000, 2000, or 4000 florin structure that takes many years to build (if the castle has no defensive upgrades that will prevent it from dropping a full level) d) To start working on a port sooner e) to start local troop production sooner f) to improve loyalty so that troops can be freed for offensive operations in other provinces earlier g) to gain income/reduce the cost of the siege sooner
8. Use religious agents (ahead of the first wave) to begin converting populace and so that you can see throughout the enemy kingdom and know what forces you will face.