Why are the Russains so weak??

[Havok]

I hope CA addresses this in the expansion pack. I heard they are adding another Cav unit. That doesnt make alot of sense. They need another Hand to hand unit BAD they get so totally outclassed by everyother faction by late game. Boyers are good. But even they get seriously outclassed by other Cath factions.

wadda yall think??

[Spino]

Last I heard the Russians are getting two new units in the Viking Invasion expansion; Druhzina Cavalry and Armored Spearmen. No doubt the latter is to address the Russian problem with inadequate anti-cavalry infantry in the High and Late eras.

[Havok]

ahhh cool. i didnt know about the Armored spearman. That will help some. They still could use a Sword unit i think. Because once the other Cath Factions get Chivalric Foot knights, The Russians dont stand a chance.

[Spino]

True but heavily armored infantry simply doesn't make sense when you have vast tracts of lands to cover. In that case it's better to base your armies on speed and maneuver instead of shock. I guess the prevalence of plains and steppes over hills and valleys dictated their preference for cavalry over infantry.

My problem with the Russians is their lack of a heavy cavalry unit that possesses a good Charge rating. Lithuanian cavalry has a good Charge rating (6) but they're really medium cavalry. Boyars are great but they lack a good punch when charging (rated at 4). Maybe the Druhzina will make up for this weakness. Historically the Druhzina also carried bows as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I think the Byzantines are getting Armored Spearmen too.

[Exile]

The Russians get Halbrediers, which are at least competitve with other H to H units. The late era does not favor the strength of the Russians - the Boyars. In early Boyars are practically unstoppable, in late - meh.

[Havok]

good point Spino. i didnt really think of it like that. But still. for game balance reasons they need something i think. Hell 1 unit of Chivalic Foot Knights could probally take out a unit of Boyars and Lithuanian Cavalry at the same time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kongamato]

I expect the Armored Spearmen to be available to all, if not most factions in VI. They might be trying to rework the spear system to make the AS a solid backbone and Order Foot/II and Sarges more specialized and/or elite.

[Galestrum]

In game terms play them to their strengths, spearmen surrounding heavy crossbows with some halberdiers, and then use the many light and med cavalry to pester and attack flanks.

Im not too familiar with Russian history of the 1200-1400s, i prefer the viking era myself. They did get steamrolled by the Mongols, perhaps they did not have a very good military at that time.

Btw, every faction is not meant to be good at all times, cuz every country wasnt.

[Emp. Conralius]

Armoured Spearmen will be available to Hungar, Russia, an Poland (maybe Byzantium). The Byzantins get new Byzantine Lancers.

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]Armoured Spearmen will be available to Hungar, Russia, an Poland (maybe Byzantium). The Byzantins get new Byzantine Lancers.

I thought CA decided that the Byzantines would definitely get the Armored Spearmen. Is this still undecided?


Quote[/b] ]I expect the Armored Spearmen to be available to all, if not most factions in VI. They might be trying to rework the spear system to make the AS a solid backbone and Order Foot/II and Sarges more specialized and/or elite.

That's a good idea but I think CA came up with the Armored Spearmen simply to address serious balancing issues in MP and in SP when the Russians try to expand west and run into the fearsome cavalry of the Catholic powers. Obviously I expect the AS to be better armored than your basic Spearmen unit with an extra point in Melee and possibly Morale. I'd say add another point in Defense but that would put them on par with Feudal Sergeants and there's no way they could justify that.


Quote[/b] ]Im not too familiar with Russian history of the 1200-1400s, i prefer the viking era myself. They did get steamrolled by the Mongols, perhaps they did not have a very good military at that time.

The Russians got steamrolled by the Mongols primarily because they were the furthest thing from being a unified people as you could get. The most important thing to keep in mind was that the Mongols had their act together and the Horde operated with direction and purpose. The same could not be said for the people of Novgorod, the Kiev Rus and all the Russian and Turkovic royalty who demonstrated about as much cooperation in the face of Mongol invasion as a pack of monkeys fighting over how to divide a single banana.

[Alrowan]

russians are fun to play with.. its a real challege, and right now im in the middle of a russian high era game on expert

[Brighdaasa]

Quote[/b] (Havok @ Feb. 17 2003,17:52)]Hell 1 unit of Chivalic Foot Knights could probally take out a unit of Boyars and Lithuanian Cavalry at the same time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Hell no, keep firing on the chiv foot knights with your boyars, in skirmish mde, tire them out, reduce them to 30ish, then charge with your boyars and charge from the back with your lith cav, and they're dead. Admitted, you need the space and time, but that's the strength of the russians, mobility.

Also, halberdiers with a few valor upgrades are excellent counters against catholic knights and spears.

[DemonArchangel]

Actually, the ruskies aren't that bad,historically, they're only weak because they were not a unified people, and of course, Boyars suck.

About the armored spearman, the byzantines should get skuatoi instead.

[Kristaps]

Yup, Russians got steamrolled by Mongols mostly because they were not united and the main reason why Russia was divided was the tradition of splitting the real estate among all descendents of the royal family. I believe, it dates back to 'Yaroslav the Wise' - a ruler of Kiev Rus. Here is a quote desribing the process:


Quote[/b] ]... Yaroslav is often called "Yaroslav the Wise" for all of these achievements, but the way he bequeathed the kingdom was anything but that. Yaroslav divided the realm into five pieces, one for each son, giving Kiev to the eldest, Novgorod to the second, and so on. When one of the princes died each one younger than him was expected to move up one notch; e.g., the third was expected to give up Chernigov to take Novgorod. Yaroslav must have expected his sons to die in the order of their birth, until the youngest was left with the whole kingdom. It did not work that way; not only did the princes refuse to die in order, but while they were always willing to receive a piece of land, they were not willing to give up something which could be passed on to their children. Furthermore, the prolific Varangian dynasty always had more children than their were titles to give them. Soon every prince wanted to be Grand Prince of it all, and when they resorted to the sword, the result was a civil war that left Russia congested with city-states for the next 400 years.


So, by the time of Mongol arrival, Russia was split into numerous city-states ready to picked by Mongols one by one... When the dust settled, only Novgorod was left standing and even their prince had to pay tribute to Mongols.

[[RDH] Spetz Natz]

Quote[/b] (DemonArchangel @ Feb. 18 2003,10:31)]and of course, Boyars suck.
No offence, but this has got to be the worst statement of opinion on these boards I have ever read. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Boyars suck? If you use them properly, they can slash through most infantry (even heavy) and can hold their own sometimes against Knights or Ghulam Bs.

Granted, they are not Lancers, but they do pretty damm well for a semi-elite unit. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]... Yaroslav is often called "Yaroslav the Wise" for all of these achievements, but the way he bequeathed the kingdom was anything but that. Yaroslav divided the realm into five pieces, one for each son, giving Kiev to the eldest, Novgorod to the second, and so on. When one of the princes died each one younger than him was expected to move up one notch; e.g., the third was expected to give up Chernigov to take Novgorod. Yaroslav must have expected his sons to die in the order of their birth, until the youngest was left with the whole kingdom. It did not work that way; not only did the princes refuse to die in order, but while they were always willing to receive a piece of land, they were not willing to give up something which could be passed on to their children. Furthermore, the prolific Varangian dynasty always had more children than their were titles to give them. Soon every prince wanted to be Grand Prince of it all, and when they resorted to the sword, the result was a civil war that left Russia congested with city-states for the next 400 years.

Hah Thanks for the history lesson I guess good old Yaroslav wasn't so wise after all You have to wonder why subsequent generations of Russian rulers didn't acknowledge the errors in Yaroslav's methods and give him a more appropriate moniker in the history books Yaroslav the Wise... hah More like 'Yaroslav the Tragically Short Sighted'. How about something more akin to Native American names? Yaroslav or 'He Who Bends His People Over a Barrel to be Sodomized by Eastern Barbarians'? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (DemonArchangel @ Feb. 18 2003,10:31)]Boyars suck.
?? Boyars suck? can thos words even be used in the same sentence? in my experiance ive beaten back the Horde with boyars http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif. Boyars suck...ha not likely, playing as the Russians Boyars have saved my ass many times. i think u should actually try to use them the way they are supposed to be used. arrow baroge, fall back, fire, fall back, fire, fall back, fire, charge.

[evilc]

The russians can beat any army fieldable in the game. You just have to be mildy creative and take the initative.

[[RDH] Spetz Natz]

Quote[/b] (Monk @ Feb. 18 2003,13:41)]
Quote[/b] (DemonArchangel @ Feb. 18 2003,10:31)]Boyars suck.
?? Boyars suck? can thos words even be used in the same sentence? in my experiance ive beaten back the Horde with boyars http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif. Boyars suck...ha not likely, playing as the Russians Boyars have saved my ass many times. i think u should actually try to use them the way they are supposed to be used. arrow baroge, fall back, fire, fall back, fire, fall back, fire, charge.
THANK YOU MONK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The only way "Boyars" and "suck" can be
truthfully used in the same sentence is if
you said:

My Boyars retired to go suck back on
some Smirnoff Ice after their well-fought
victory.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[chilliwilli]

Quote[/b] ([RDH] Spetz Natz @ Feb. 18 2003,15:10)]
Quote[/b] (Monk @ Feb. 18 2003,13:41)]
Quote[/b] (DemonArchangel @ Feb. 18 2003,10:31)]Boyars suck.
?? Boyars suck? can thos words even be used in the same sentence? in my experiance ive beaten back the Horde with boyars http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif. Boyars suck...ha not likely, playing as the Russians Boyars have saved my ass many times. i think u should actually try to use them the way they are supposed to be used. arrow baroge, fall back, fire, fall back, fire, fall back, fire, charge.
THANK YOU MONK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The only way "Boyars" and "suck" can be
truthfully used in the same sentence is if
you said:

My Boyars retired to go suck back on
some Smirnoff Ice after their well-fought
victory.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Nicely said http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. I agree I like them alot, except when I'm The Mongols though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif.

[71-hour Ahmed]

Boyars.

cavalry.

i like

ranged attack

I like

Hard asses who laugh at the cold bone chilling steppe winds

Double like

Russky

For the Rodina Comrades

Just waiting for the other unit to arrive to complement them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Monk]

in NO way are the Russians weak. i have recently fought a battle with 647 men against 1123 mongols. it turned into an archery shootout. my boyars picked the mongols apart before charging them and destroying them before long. the Russians gained influence since they were the only faction to stand their ground against the GH. so again in ABSOLUTLY NO WAY DO BOYARS SUCK i am done here

[Havok]

Quote[/b] ]The russians can beat any army fieldable in the game. You just have to be mildy creative and take the initative.

I have to disagree big time here.

Im glad alot of you like the Russians and all but they are by no means "balanced" when it comes to other factions. Only time they are strong is earley game because Boyars can rock almost anything in the begining.

But by middle to late game they dont stand a chance agaisnt a well-balance Catholic Faction. Thats like saying the Almo-heads are strong late game. You might be able to win some battles do to the fact that the computers A.I. can be exploited but thats the only reason.

They get Steppe Cav - Very good light cav, but crappy Morale.

Lith Cav - Not bad Med cav but they get seriously outclassed by other Catholic factions.

Boyar's- Good cav all around. But there Charge rating suck and they get outclassed by other cav eventually. By late game there arrows dont get many kills at all.

Halberdiers - The ONLY good infantry unit. And they lose every time against other Cath Factions heavy infantry.

Archer's, Arb's, and Crossbowman - almost everyone gets these guys.

House archers - everyone can get these.

So as you can see. there only unit that is any good is Boyar's. But Boyar's arent the greatest thing in the game. Not by a LONG shot.

Now i like the Fact that in MTW not every Faction is completely balanced. But the Ruskies need a little help IMO.

[Alrowan]

ruskies rule

in my game now ive driven deep into the heart of europe, my armies barely taking a loss at all, as it stands my boyars are just tearing the enemies to shreds, coupled with steppe cavalry i have entire armies running in no time, my halbreds barely see combat, but when they do they eat all in thier path... Russians are one of my fav factions by far

[Havok]

Quote[/b] ]ruskies rule

in my game now ive driven deep into the heart of europe, my armies barely taking a loss at all, as it stands my boyars are just tearing the enemies to shreds, coupled with steppe cavalry i have entire armies running in no time, my halbreds barely see combat, but when they do they eat all in thier path... Russians are one of my fav factions by far

Yeah, im not saying its impossible to win with them. i can beat the computer with anyone almost all the time. But if you play against any average human player your gonna lose 8 outta 10 times.

They have NO good heavy cav, no good Heavy Inf and no good spear units.

And the Steppe Cav and the Lith Cav anyone can get. All you need is to have the right province.

[Alrowan]

well i can rebut every point here havok, basically the way to ply russinas is to take a completely new approach. If you play the way you play with most other factions you will get eaten, true. But there are other ways to play this game. When i play as russia online i tend to take halbreds for holding the line with a few FFK and Arbs. That can hold well enough against most armies. The part where one must b wary however is with your own cav. I take a lot of boyars and steppe cav. Keep your steppe on the wide flank, very wide even, and you can use them to do 2 tihngs, 1, draw your opponents cav out, or to hit thier cav in the rear when they charge you. With steppe cav, thier charge is devestating, and they tend to fare well for the first moments of combat, use this to your advantage against the heavier and slower knights. Charge and withdraw, Charge and withdraw,.. and so on. You will quickly have the enemy cav routing in no-time, i guarentee that. Boyars are another good unit for messing with cav, thier bows are a hassle to anyone, and you can use these to distract thier cav from your steppe cav, and then when your steppe cav engage, engage your boyars... another way to cause a mass rout.

basically when you have defeated your enemies cav, use your stepe cav can be used for chargin thier rear... its worked nearly every time for me, and halbreds at v3 are awesome at holding the line if they arent flanked. So keep them from being flanked, and your main line will hold while you kill thier cav

[Havok]

Yeah Alrowan,

Thats more or less how i use them. But in MP that tactic is extremely hard. Micro-managing every Cav unit is next to impossible.

And most other factions have light cav they can use to offset Steppe cav.

Spanish have Jinettles
English and French have Hobilars
Turks have Turcoman
and so on.

Once the Steppe cavs charge is done they get ripped to shreds.

And Boyars can be offset pretty easy also.
There just Med Cav with bows.

So you may win sometimes ...... but more often then not your gonna lose(to a human). just My opinion
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[[RDH] Spetz Natz]

Quote[/b] (Havok @ Feb. 18 2003,18:47)]Yeah, im not saying its impossible to win with them. i can beat the computer with anyone almost all the time. But if you play against any average human player your gonna lose 8 outta 10 times.
Ummm...I beg to differ. I don't keep
track of my online records, but when using
Russians, I win probably 8 times out of 10
against "any average" human player. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Havok]

ok... so basically what you guys are saying is that cause the Russians have a Med Cav unit that has a bow and a fast light cav unit they are good??

Thats ALL they have. Im confused http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[LordKhaine]

I'm more concerned about the AI. In 1.0 the russians put up a good fight, in 1.1 they're often wiped out by rebellions before they even get the ball rolling. Shame to see a faction left so helpless, even the Aragonese tend to do better http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Well, as long as there are people who can back up their claim that Russians can be victorious in SP and MP, at a reasonable rate, I think we don't have to discuss about balancing.
Personally, I want disctinct factions that have different tactics and army composition. As I said before, if you balance everything, all that differs will be the faction name and the colour you use. (and maybe the name of the units, too) Does anyone want that?

[Alrowan]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 19 2003,19:31)]As I said before, if you balance everything, all that differs will be the faction name and the colour you use. (and maybe the name of the units, too) Does anyone want that?
heh.. sounds like shogun to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Yep http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[powdermonkey]

Russia biggest problem is the provinces they start with, and the difficulty in taking and holding the rebel provices around them.
The units aren't too bad, and Boyars will kick a$$ if used right.
Unfortunately they are really expensive, and the income from the provinces they start with don't allow for large armies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
I've won a couple of SP games with the Russians, but the early years are REALLY tough Once you've taken Lithuania, Kazar, and some of the other small territories in between, the cash starts to roll in and then you can smash the GH and take on the rest of the Catholic world aswell http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Alrowan]

well in me expert campagin as russia, i started off with very little money.. makes for a tough start. Basically your coffers will be empty as a russian for quite some time. The way i made my money tended to be making my coastal provs (lithuania, novogorod, finland and kiev) all trade houses. give them lots of ships in the seas, and good high acuman governors. The reason why russia is in the poorhouse a lot is due to boyars being thier chief unit, having an upkeep of 105 florins

[Monk]

the bigest problem i have with the russians is heirs. i ussualy get WAY TO MANY. and since each heir gets a unit of Boyars then it devistates my economy. it takes me while to climb out of the hole. and when i do i have no time o mess around...for the Mongol Hordes Cometh.

anyway thats only one problem i have sometimes.