The Golden Horde

[max_killer_payne]

O.k so the mongols invade Georgia when im the byzantines, with around 4 thousand men. I have 3 thousand men. They charge with all their heavy cavalry, and to my amazment most of them are cut down and flee by some Urban Militia It was very odd.

Anyone else experience anythin like this??

[Exile]

The Byz rock the GH every time I play them. A large factor might be the high command rating of Byz generlas vs. rather low comand ratings of GH generals.

A high command rating turns poor troops like UM effectively into elite troops through significant bonuses to attack, defense and morale.

[and another thing....]

I`ve fought the GH a few times as various factions (mainly Byz, Turks). If I fight defensively, based round spearmen,crossbow men and a few heavy cavalry I always win - the GH seem to want to form up in formation whilst the Xbow troops cut through them dead easily and then their heavy cavalry can`t get through spearmen.

Did fight them as Germans once and decided to try and use a lot of cavalry against them and fight quite fluidly - in this battle, suffered very heavy casualties as the GH were too mobile - lost about 3500 men to their 1200.

On the whole though, not as tough as I`d thought that they would be (from what I can remember in history books)

[Monk]

one thing i might add is every time i went toe to toe with them i got crushed. the only victories i ever scored agaiunst them was in the use of terrain. Ive had mixed results sometimes they are easy and somtimess they decide to decimate my forces.

[Bhruic]

Within 5 years of their arrival, 25% of the the time they are dead, 50% of the time they are down to one province. I personally have yet to fight them, mainly because I play western factions. But they do seem a bit of a non-presense. I'm thinking about bumping up the general a bit, seeing if making him an 8 star would help. If I remember correctly, they had some damn good tacticians.

Bh

[Orda Khan]

Quote[/b] (Bhruic @ Feb. 14 2003,17:27)]Within 5 years of their arrival, 25% of the the time they are dead, 50% of the time they are down to one province. I personally have yet to fight them, mainly because I play western factions. But they do seem a bit of a non-presense. I'm thinking about bumping up the general a bit, seeing if making him an 8 star would help. If I remember correctly, they had some damn good tacticians.

Bh
That's right, they had the best.

CA have made the Horde a bit lame, have you tried the Orda's Horde download? Mongols are far stronger there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

.....Orda

[Nobunaga0611]

Mongols are a presence for me always just because of the sheer numbers that they get. They always seem to come out of nowhere with tons of of troops they shouldn't have.

[cugel]

I had the same negative experience with the horde as the Byzantines. I was all geared up to fight them with 10,000 troops in kiev, the crimea and Georgia. They appeared with 20,000 men in Kazar. O.K. Next turn they attacked Crimea with 10,000. I had one very tough battle with them & finally won. Next turn and every turn thereafter they just sit there and do nothing. They don't even attack smolensk and other provinces I leave virtually undefended. I think that I need to mod them to give them a 9 star general with morale boosting V & V's. Maybe then, they'll be more agressive.

Historically, Subetai the mongol general was one of the greatest generals of medieval or ancient times. They had some superb commanders. It should be a real challenge to keep them from overruning all of Europe. Instead, they are generally an afterthought. Maybe they'll be modded by CA for the expansion, but I won't be surprised if nothing is done to fix them.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Orda does the downloaded mod also make them stronger for the AI if you play another faction or is the horde just stronger as a playable faction (ie for the player)? They really should be just hell on wheels. I think that CA didn't want to make them too tough so that casual gamers wouldn't complain that they were wiped out by the horde every time. Well, if Ogadai hadn't died, that's exactly what would have happened. You would have been wiped out. The Horde SHOULD roll over your best armies. You SHOULD have a life or death struggle to stop them short of the Atlantic (at least on expert). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Bhruic]

Quote[/b] (Orda Khan @ Feb. 14 2003,17:45)]That's right, they had the best.

CA have made the Horde a bit lame, have you tried the Orda's Horde download? Mongols are far stronger there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

.....Orda
I really don't want to install any mod unless I know exactly what it does. Besides that, I've made some changes to the files myself, so installing a mod would require I go through and re-do everything.

With that being said, if you could let me know what specifically you did, I'd appreciate it.

Bh

[Monk]

just installed the Orda Mod. and i must say im happy with its results http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . the horde is more terrifying than ever.

[Fnord]

I find it kind of strange hearing everyone talking about how the horde is such a non-factor in their games. I just started a game with Poland in High, and when the Horde appeared they tore through russia in about 5 turns. They now own everything east of Lithuainia and north of the black sea.

They left their king next to one of my provinces with only about 200 men, so I invaded, took the king prisoner and executed him. Turns out he had an heir http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif. It would have been so very nice to see all that territory become a rebel faction.

[hoom]

I think it depends a lot on how you deal with them.

If you plonk a huge elite army on them as soon as they appear and smash them up over a couple of hours, then sure they aren't that impressive.

This is partially on account of the initial battle being between aproximately even numbers of troops.
Once the initial wave is broken it gets much easier.

If it was your army vs the full might of the 10 000+ horde all on the map at once, it would be a very different story.

[Galestrum]

yeah, when you hear in this thread and other how "yeah i had 10 k fully upgraded "insert leet units" in Georgia and khazar when the hoard appears, its not really that impressive. Try to actually not build up and be "ready" for the horde in Khazar and Georgia and things are alot harder

[Orda Khan]

Glad you like it Monk...HORSE ARCHERS http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

You got me there Cugel. As you can imagine I have only campaigned _as_ the Horde not _against_ them but I would imagine the Horde would be OH if the OH stats had been selected.

......Orda

[Bhruic]

Quote[/b] (Fnord @ Feb. 17 2003,00:38)]I find it kind of strange hearing everyone talking about how the horde is such a non-factor in their games. I just started a game with Poland in High, and when the Horde appeared they tore through russia in about 5 turns. They now own everything east of Lithuainia and north of the black sea.
It's odd, they were a huge factor in the game where I was Poland too. It could be that normally I play factions that aren't very close to the Mongols, so they don't bother me. We'll see how tough they are in my current game - I'm playing the Egyptians. Only 8 years until they show up, and the bulk of my forces is sitting in Spain trying to finish them off fast enough to return home and defend. Should be an interesting encounter. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Bh

[Galestrum]

I think it really matters on the difficulty setting, how strong the faction(s) are holding the initial invaded provinces and the current events (are all the factions in the east at war, or just laying around with uber units galore)

I have been testing my 1205 mod and the mongols just appeared with 20 stacks and blew thru a strong turkish faction, now im trembling in my recently taken constantinople hehe

[max_killer_payne]

Orda Khan Do you know any other links for the Horde mod?? Ive made the Mongol units stronger, because the link for the download on the org, says the download is complete but its only done 15.2 kb and when I unzip it says it is an invalid fil download again, Ive tried it loads of times.

[Orda Khan]

Quote[/b] (max_killer_payne @ Feb. 18 2003,10:15)]Orda Khan Do you know any other links for the Horde mod?? Ive made the Mongol units stronger, because the link for the download on the org, says the download is complete but its only done 15.2 kb and when I unzip it says it is an invalid fil download again, Ive tried it loads of times.
That sounds odd. I refer you to a post by Ckrisz in the Dungeon, it's heading is 'Orda's Horde v2' There is a link plus an explanation of new units, unit changes, etc. Hope you can sort it out as I know you will enjoy it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

........Orda

[max_killer_payne]

I really wanna play this mod, but I cannot download it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Orda Khan I checked out that topic in the dungeon, no links. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif . You could always attach it and send it to me if u feel like being a pal

If u r in a giving mood, send it to anthony.jenkins@hotmail.com

c ya http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Orda Khan]

OOPS Ok I'll try again....
Wrong thread for the link. The link is in 'Mod to play as Pagan' by Hyrig in the Entrance Hall.
Good luck

.....Orda

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]...I think that CA didn't want to make them too tough so that casual gamers wouldn't complain that they were wiped out by the horde every time. Well, if Ogadai hadn't died, that's exactly what would have happened. You would have been wiped out. The Horde SHOULD roll over your best armies. You SHOULD have a life or death struggle to stop them short of the Atlantic (at least on expert).

I disagree. The Horde should be one tough opponent but they should NOT roll over your best armies. Once into the more varied terrian of Europe the Horde would have been facing an entirely different struggle, where vast scores of cavalry would have proved to be less than optimal in the varied terrain of Central and Western Europe. More importantly, as far as I know the Golden Horde never faced a determined, organized and well led opponent since they turned west after conquering China. I liken their conquest west as one giant steamroller faced with only a scattering of smaller stones and nary a boulder in sight. As impressive as the Mongols were they never knew what it was like to face a 13th century equivalent of Charles Martel or Aetius at the head of a considerable alliance brought together for a single purpose. When the Mongols moved into western Asia and eastern Europe there was no epic battle the likes of Tours or Chalons, where two well led armies of similar quality faced off against one another to determine the fate of an entire continent. You put a man like Caesar, Belisarius, Saladin or Aetius in charge of a well organized alliance to confront the Horde and Genghis or his best generals (Subotei) would have had their work cut out for them.

[Orda Khan]

But Spino.....The move west was undertaken while the campaign on China was still ongoing...Final assault on the Sung 1267...Withdrawal from Europe on Ogedei's death ...1241

Southern China is not open steppe or grassland, lot's of pesky rivers but there again the seige type war against the Kin in northern China was not steppe warfare either.

The Kingdom of Khwarizm was the most powerful in central Asia yet it was overcome with relative ease by the Mongols who were outnumbered.
How many Mongol armies actually outnumbered their enemies? Even at their defeat at Ain Jalut their forces were but a quarter of those commanded by Baibars. So much for the crushing defeat. In fact the main contingent of the enemy was crumbling when Baibars delivered the decisive blow to the Mongol flanks.
If we take more than a casual look it is quite apparent that the Mongol Empire disintergrated from the inside rather than from some outside threat or intervention. Internicine struggles between the different houses of Chingis Khan's descendants had more effect on the expansion of the Empire than any other contributary factor. Split into smaller Khanates, they squabbled and fought among themselves.

So no, I don't see any European army posing much of a threat had the campaign continued.

People are quick to condemn The Mongols as barbarians and nothing more but I would ask how many conquerers have been so lenient where Religion is concerned? It mattered not to them which faith you chose.
For the first time the trade routes through Asia were safe to travel.
China united for the first time under one rule

......Orda

[Spino]

I stand corrected on the timeline with respect to the Mongol invasion of China but I do not recant the remainder of what I posted. I simply stated that despite the size and composition of their opponents as they rolled west, the Mongols never faced an army as well led and organized as their own. The Mongol defeat at the hands of Jalal al-Din was a temporary setback and the Khwarezm empire was defeated soon after. While the Khwarezm empire was powerful I don't ever recall reading that Jalal was a great strategist or leader. Beyond Jalal I can only recall the Mameluks inflicting a defeat on the Mongols sometime after the death of Genghis and no leader's name was mentioned. The Huns were of a similar nature to the Mongols and Attila arguably as clever a strategist as Genghis but as I said before, the Mongols never met an Aetius-like opponent on the field of battle, especially when they reached the fringes of W. Asia and E. Europe. My argument with respect to MTW is that well led armies of a sensible composition used properly should NOT get rolled over by the Mongols because historically speaking, there is no precedence to establish this as ringing true.

Luck aside, victory is not simply the result of the victor's willpower and action but also a reflection on the character and nature of the defeated. Mongolian success was as dependent on their own actions as it was on their enemies'.

[max_killer_payne]

I think its something wrong with my winzip, cos I cant download it. Anyway I just got Pro Evolution Soccer 2 and The Getaway on PS2. See you all in a few years

[Mr. Juice]

Quote[/b] (Orda Khan @ Feb. 18 2003,13:07)]So no, I don't see any European army posing much of a threat had the campaign continued.
To some extent, who cares what happened in reality? This game allows you to change history.

Poland never conquered Europe, but how many people have done so in Medieval?

Why should the Horde nearly reach the Atlantic every time? We're changing what happened.

[Monk]

to make fighting the horde more fun i never position my best forces in their starting regions. i always have them like 2 or 3 turns away. ussually caught in a war with the Byzantines (since im ussualy playing as one of the Islamic Factions). that way it seems to catch ur empire off guard and now you will be dealing with the Horde in all its ferocity. i aslo tried Editing some other units to make them apear with the mongols aswell...it didnt work. but (along with the orda mod), i made the Mongol Units Bigger(in number sizes) and stronger. seems to make for some interesting battles.

[Orda Khan]

Just to clear up a few matters I think I ought to stress that the Orda's Horde stats were created as a means to campaign as the Mongols. Having already tried them on MP they were very weak compared to the other factions. The Heavy cav struggled against Alans and Boyars could beat them quite easily in h2h. They also had no infantry worth a mention other than Golden Horde Warriors. I asked Tosa not to make them invincible as this would not make for a good campaign. So I agree, they should not steam roller their way through high grade armies. I am more than happy with the results as I have been given my head a few times http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Now the question about campaigning against the Horde on OH interests me....I honestly never gave it a thought. Is that what you've done Monk? If so, did they field the OH units?

.......Orda

[Whitey]

You 'can' go toe to toe with the GH, however when I did it I was using an army composed of fully upgraded armour and weapons Kataphraktoi, and even then It was one hell of a nice fight...

the are tough, its just the AI mis-uses them (as always...)

[Sainika]

I was playing Turkey when mongols arrived with 14 000 men in 1230. They appeard in Khazar and Armenia, took these provinces from me and tried to spread over Minor Asia. My best troops were in Europe fighting with Germans and it was rather tough to go to war with Mongols too. It took me for 10 years to reduce mongol hordes from 14 000 to 2 000. I was fihgting several long battles a day (fortunately in weekend, no work, rest etc). They lasted more than 2 hours each. I won every battle I played myself but mongols tried and tried to conquer my asian provinces and did not invade russian provinces although there were no troops at all I was ready to give them Khazar and make ceasefire just to look how they smash germans. They had no treaties with them and had big army to found a big empire but mongols chose defeat to glorious days of Orda. After 10 years of war mongols stood in Khazar and couldn't already invade eastern europe because germans raised armies there and hold russian provinces succesfully.
Fighting with mongols was interesting. I didn't make traps for mongol troops and did not attack often to increase difficulty (of course I was able to eliminate mongols very quickly - I had excellent warriors, a lot of cavalry and archers - but would it be more interesting to play?).
I hoped to see big challenge from Orda but got only bloody weekend http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Orda Khan]

Well it seems there is no accounting for the AI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
I did say that OH was developed to campaign AS the Horde rather than AGAINST them. So it seems the AI still makes strange decisions but tell me...did they bring any of the new units?

.......Orda

[Sainika]

They did. They made a lot of steppe cavalry but having only two provinces (Khazar and Armenia) they could build only two units per turn. During 10 years they produced ~2*10*60(max)=1200 new men. As I said they did not attack russian provinces at all and couldn't increase significantly the number of their troops.

[burma_mtw]

Somebody wrote a book speculating how things might be different had not the GH turned back after the death of their Khan. They were ringing the doorbell at the entrance to Venice, the economical epicenter for all of Europe. Didn't happen, of course, but it might be a fun read for those interested in the Mongels. It I can find the reference I will post the Title/Author.

Once one knows that the boys are coming in AD 1230 they can be delt with via proper planning. However, playing the Turks as my first Campaign experience, it was both an enormous shock and a expensive and bloody decade or two before I was back on my feet. Not only did they show up in Kazar, but they also attached Georgia and Lesser Armenia. They had over eight billion troops.

My first battle with them is still one of my best memories about this game. I set up a defensive position and waited. When they came over a hill they were stretched out in a single line from left to right. It is only a game, but my heart started beating faster and I knew I was in for a vary bad time. Custer had it easy.

Like most things in this game, if you want it to be tougher, just change a parameter or two. Try changing the Mongel Faction Behavior setting. That might be the easiest thing to do as all their running around raiding this and that is counter productive for long term success.

Like somebody said in a previous post, I also have seen them be unusually successful. Playing the Danes and pretty much sitting around collecting money and watching everybody else have all the fun, the Mongels ended up with almost the entire right side of the map. I think alot has to do with how many Provinces they start with. Three is the most that I have seen, but if there are lots of Rebel held provinces sitting around when they show up, I believe it could go higher.

A new fact for me is that when the Mongels both fought in Japan and later drowned in the Devine Wind, the vast majority of the troops were Chinese...and they carried hand granades. I guess it makes sense since most of the make-up of their armies were non-Mongel anyway.