MTW veterans; How to make friends with AI and...

[Ligur]

Ok this is a bit longwinded, the topic says most of it so if you have any experiences just reply. I'm trying to understand some AI behavioural patterns here.

Anyway, in my current English GA campaign I went past the point where I became the richest, most advanced and powerful nation and suddenly I was in war with just about everyone. Some christian ally faction suddenly attacks you, sinks your ships, you open the sea lanes by sinking their ships in return, the pope excommunicates you etc. etc. We all know the pattern. Nothing you can do about it really as far as I know, once you are big enough. Total War. I survived the first years of the ordeal as a victor and quickly noticed if I don't take it easy on the AI the game is over with 200 rounds left to play. Next time I'll be sure to pick expert.

My question, is there any way to achieve a ceasefire with any of these guys? I want them to take it easy with me for a while and grow a bit since this way none of them will challenge me, ever. I'm trying to roleplay a GA campaign here damnit

I have a bunch of provinces but not THAT many, there are still 15 (&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif AI factions left and I have my homelands, some middle easte provinces from my crusades, Scandinavia, some former Russian provinces... I wanted to succeed with the high grade troops and tech solid economy and extensive trade yields. Also, I don't want to grow so big I own half the map, too much managing and then there is always to fear of the Massive Rebellion of Doom. I much rather control my heartlands, GA related areas and some nice provinces aquired by quick wars that give good trade revenue. Keep those in good control. Plenty left for the AI. Now the The AI can't even trade since I control the seas and every faction who gets a barque is compelled to attack me instantly if we're not in a war already.

So, I deviced a nefarious plan for two reasons: To give the AI a boost and to get more dough. After the two decades of massive, raging battles that followed my rise to prominence half of Western Europe was in the hands of some rebel lord or another. This is because I made buffer zones out of 10+ different provinces and left them to the rebels. Alas I burned them down pretty bad while at it. So I took them back from the rebels and started developing them for the AI, pulled back and left them empty. Surely some of the 5 local factions at war with me will take them back? No. They won't. I mean, what the hell? TAKE THEM. USE THE MONEY TO BUILD TROOPS AND BUILDINGS AND THINGS. YOU ARE IN WAR WITH ME ANYWAY. Also, I noticed that too many seaside provinces with tradeable goods were either in rebel hands, mine as buffer zones or maybe owned by the Golden Horde who never develope anything (this is the dough part) so I build ports and shipwrights to each and left them empty for my various enemies in hopes they would grab them, a port would survice and I could enjoy the incredible trade. No way, the AI loathes the port provinces just as much. The AI just sits there like a dumbass.

Aaargh. The AI sure is active, rushing troops here and there and attacking with bargues and Urban Militia but never does anything remotely intelligent like grabbing my empty provinces and then accepting a ceasefire. I guess this campaign went too well and I have to start another...

VI will apparently address some of these things like AI trade patterns and also building destruction which is the major reason the AI is doing so poorly in my current (and previous) campaigns

[Exile]

there comes a point in the game where you have to handicap yourself to keep it interesting. Expert level will be a bit more of a challenge, but with some of the same problems.

The bigger your empire, the less the other factions like you. 15 provs is pretty big. Also it is hard to broker a ceasfire while you are fighting many allied opponents. Sometimes, there's no way to pull it off. There is one almost surefire way to get a ceasfire - load up an enemy prov with spies until it rebels. Usually the AI is quick to accept a ceasefire when it has a prov in rebellion.

[Ligur]

Oh really? I've been causing rebellions here and there, particularly in the earlier game to balance things off. Next time I do it I'll try for a ceasefire immediately. For example when the Byz wiped out the Turks I made a few of the conquered provinces rebel and lo and behold, the Turks were reborn. The same thing when Egypt was about to be run over by the Horde. Now I'm sorry I did it since that way I've been keeping all the AI factions far too small.

And they just swap provinces like mad, making sure nobody gets really good tech, ever :(

[Knight_Yellow]

i know what u mean ive seen the byz in britian and the fench in constantinople.

bloody ai needs a kick up the a***

[Brutal DLX]

Hi Ligur,

It seems to me as if you were too careless with your "quick wars", and you stretched your trading lines out too far. That is a sure way to get attacked. Keep it on a smaller scale and choose your alliances with care, because of the dreaded domino effect when someone starts a war.
In my English campaign for example, I owned all of Greater Britain, Brittany, Aquitaine, Aragon and Navarre. the trade route I had was from the Baltic Sea to the Ligurian Sea (I think, the one off Genoa), this had worked fine, allowed for an acceptable army and nice surplus money. Then I gained a foothold in Antioch and other crusader states were subsequently taken by other Catholic factions' crusades.
Now there are about 100 years of play left and I'm only at war with Islamic powers, I think.
Sure, toward the end of the campaign, I expect some action, but for the greater part you have smooth sailing if you act with care and pay attention to all the alliances around you. Don't start a war just because you want it. Wait for an opportune time, or fabricate a chance yourself with spies or leave one of your provinces unprotected.

[Ligur]

Brutal DLX, (love Speedball 2 btw]

I never started any wars myself apart from a crusade to Antioch, Syria and Odessa (all in Turkish hands)respectively. But the trading thing probaply hit a vein as you can read below. Most of the nations, apart from the Moslem factions came asking for an alliance with me, and I picked the closest ones eagerly.

When Byzantines invaded Antioch with some nasty heavy units(I had to keep it to get my GA score) I struck back at their infrastructure, maybe got too greedy taking two of their provinces for bufferzones.

HRE and later the French attecked me, I only defended untill everyone else allied against me also and things looked grim for a few years, then I burned down the borders and left them to the rebels to make for more bufferzones. I kept the French alive for a long time when the HRE was about to crush them so it was a shame, I had good trade with the French untill HRE finally took just about everything and the French turned on me. With HRE the constant war is ok, we hate each other and take turns on being excommed.

The Almos attacked my fleet a year before the Spanish reappeared so I took Navarre and Portugal from them, to save the Spanish and for revenge. The Spaniards are my only ally btw.

I have been on and off allied/ceasefire/at war with Italy. Italy was doing bad and suggested a marriage of which I approved. 10 years later they suddenly noticed some alliances were were at odds with each other and attacked my trading fleet. They never accepted a ceasefire after that.

The Polish, I dunno, never had any contact with them. They, too, attacked my trading fleet in the Baltic Sea out of the blue (they were at that point the only AI faction to make money outta trade).

The Swiss and the Aragonese tried to invade Aquitaine.

Sicily attacked my trading without provocation and lost all their trade instantly.

Egypt attacked Palestine.

When I left Palestine empty for the Egyptians the Horde took it...

The two Russian provinces I have I took from Rebels. A war with Russia erupted when they tried to take them back a 100 years later. It was a fun fight btw, I had an ancient garrison in Novgorod and had to beat off Boyars, Halberds and Arbalesters with some Mounted Sgt's, longbows and Highland Clansmen. I hid in a large wood, drew them in with a Mounted Sgt unit and had the Scotts charge them amongst the trees, hehe... 600 dead to 500 but I had the field in the end, hyuck hyuck.

So guess I'm too spread out (I enjoy having a few mini-kindoms here and there to keep tabs of whats going on) but yeah, 50% of my wars have started with someone attacking my fleet. Maybe I'll not spread quite as much and keep trading in a smaller area. Lone caravales somehow compell the AI to make a stupid move.

Another thing, how do I keep my Royal lineage in a good shape and keep my influence up if I play a passive game of keeping my own end and trading? When I had a rest for maybe two generations in the early game my rulers turned into inbred, crackbrained slobs and my influence was terrible. I started getting good rulers and princes again only after everyone turned on me and I had to kick their ass repeatedly (using princes as battering rams). You can have someone at war with you all the time, yeah, but the AI spends itself very quickly and then, unless you give up and go home, you surely destroy the faction. And by giving up you usually lose the provinces you conquer and every other faction ranks you in with the losers.

[Brutal DLX]

Hehe, sounds as if you have a lot of fun and action though, and you aren't losing yet. so be happy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Yes, you are too far spread out, the more borders you share with other factions, the more compelled they might feel to take a bite out of you. I would abandon the Russian provinces and help the Spanish fight the Almohads, oh, and keep naval superiority in your trading zone, if you have the money, start stacking at least two ships in each sea zone, that will drastically reduce the AI attacks on your ships. The struggle with the HRE sounds like fun, but are you sure you need those buffer provinces in Europe? Take them for yourself if your income is low. And help the French as long as you can, it's more fun that way, I think.
Also, The Italians are always relying on a strong Navy, they don't like to have trading competition in their seazones. If you stretch all the way to Sicily with your traderoute, that will make them furious all the time. So now you either have to sink their fleet or stay away and try to stretch along the African coast (which could be trading with you again if the Spanish are winning against the Almohads) Hold on to the middel east provinces until you get the points for that, after that, just give them up if they are too mcuht rouble to hold. Maybe you can egta ceasefire with the new owner after some years, so you can trade. You still have plenty of options, but don't expect to see many ceasefires anymore, it's hard to correct that at this stage of messed up affairs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

As for your royal line, it is true, if you sit idle, your influence will suffer and your heirs too. If you are warring you gain influence and command stars. You have to decide what you want, can't have everything.. I found out you can live with a king who has just 2 influence points, but you better stand fast and don't lose territory or a Civil War may be next.

PS: I'm glad some people still remember the good games way back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[econ21]

Ligur,

I know the problem. A few tricks you may know:
(1) separating your forces leads to an automatic ceasefire - if you can get no land border with an enemy and no ships adjacent, there will be peace.
(2) deterr piracy against your trade routes. Giving each ship an escort in seas occupied by enemies will help, but it seems the AI can pull in neighbouring ships to attack in the same year, so ideally each stack should outnumber the sum of an enemy's ships in all adjacent seas (expensive).
(3) don't repeat the Gulf War: when you fight and can't do (1), it may be best to destroy the enemy. That way all the factions allied to it will be free to be your friend again. Otherwise, I have lost 1/2 my allies when one faction attacked me and the other 1/2 when a second got nasty later.
(4) ceasefires are more likely early in a war - I often find factions agree to them after they have started a war through piracy. When you start taking their land or fight for decades, they don't like you. yes, the AI has feelings too...

BTW, the VI patch may make ceasefires more common (I live in hope).

Simon

[SirGrotius]

I shall complain.

I have noticed that the AI often declines a ceasefire or alliance with me by saying something to the effect of, "Attack our mutual enemies to show your worth, first." Of course, I'm quick to check the alliances, and lo, said faction is only at war with me or not at war with anyone. I find it hard to believe that by my making war on their neighbors and thus approaching ever-closer to their doorstep will induce a "friendly-feeling" from them. I may be wrong.

Also, you may want to check out the posts regarding "worst allies" and such, it does seem that certain factions (Italianos and Sicilians) make awful allies.

[Ligur]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Feb. 21 2003,06:34)]Hehe, sounds as if you have a lot of fun and action though, and you aren't losing yet. so be happy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Yep not losing yet and infact never, the game was clear by 1301 when I stopped the initial assault of 7 nations at once and inflicted such horrible damage with my retaliation most of them are now building Urban Militia (of course this is mostly due to the AI factions waging little wars earlier where they swap provinces all the time or lose them to rebels, so all the buildings get destroyed).

Despite warring with everyone and having military costs of 17000 gold every year I'm still making some 10k in profits. I have a crapload of the best units you can have by 1331, eight 6+ star generals, I have 3+ caravels (8 in some key points so I can spread them fast) in EVERY sea area of the map, usually spread to two fleets so I can better catch small fast ships etc. etc.

This all is why I left a load of empty provinces for the AI to take, so the 14 surviving AI factions could grow a bit. Alas, they refuse to take my gifts and instead concentrate on building Urban Militia and Galleys which I sink everytime they appear. To make the game interesting I should really pull back from everywhere except the British Isles, Normandy, Anjou and such as you said. Which is too much to ask. I started a new campaign with the English and turtled out, concentrating on building many shipwright provinces ASAP. I'm going at year 1171, have established solid trade from Baltic Sea to Genoa and have plenty of money, infact so much I can't spend it all no matter how much I tech. Also I'm going to leave my trade route to that, and not risk taking it farther.

The cost of leaving the other factions alone?

The Turks own everything east from Novgorod, Constantinopole (yeah they took that too) and Egypt. There has been the amazing total of one (failed) crusade against them this far and none of the Christian factions are in war with them except the Byzantines who are stranded in Crete and Rhodes. Even the Pope thinks everything is just fine.

Sigh.

I just collected a 6 stack army in Wessex and can push my fleet to Outremer in two years. I have 4 crusades built and waiting. I have all my target provinces and their border provinces infested with Emissaries who kind of just mope around and keep track of what exactly I'm going against. I'm going to launch all four crusades at the same time, invade Antioch, Palestine and Tripoli during one year and take Odessa the second. Keep a lifeline of ships there untill Crusade GA time is finished and then pull back.

My fear?

The Turkish are allied with HRE for some reason, even though they don't have any contact and my Crusade might start some kind of a world war.

We'll see in a few hours =P If someone doesn't hit the Turks now I'll have 20 stack Saracen armies stomping around France pretty soon.

Simon
D'oh not having played in a few months I forgot the automatic ceasefire thingy Must try that in my new campaign as soon as everything implodes like it usually does.

PS Brutal DLX, my record in Speedball 2 was stomping Fatal Justice 1255 to 20 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I gave them two goals so I could get the ball faster to their area, throwing it back from your own end takes more time then giving them a goal and starting from the middle again. I carved the score on my Amiga with a knife and inked the text black. I used to play SB2 far too much when I was a kid =P

[Brutal DLX]

You forgot that you can't have more than one active crusade at a time. At least that's what the Pope was telling me a lot back in my starting days... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
And about the destruction of buildings, hold out until the VI expansion arrives, then, buildings can only be destroyed once the castle has fallen. Should make it a bit more interesting. For variety, you can start games in High or Late, you should encounter better units then...

PS: I never gave them goals. At least not when I was powered up enough. And Super Nashwan was a bit tougher, I thought. Not that tough though, once they had to substitute their whole squad in one game against me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ligur]

True about the crusades, got carried away with my insane plans, but the idea is to launch them in a rapid succession and finish each in two years at most.

PS. I never got to substitute many players from the good teams, once took away 11 players (isn't that more then one field?) from The Renegades but hey, they don't really count. Yeah, Nashwan was the most fearsome. Fatal Justice just had the best middle field I think, but forwards and defence fell behind Nashwan. Still the second best team. And I gave them the goals so I could score more a lot faster myself That way I ended up having some 80 more points myself I swear

[Brutal DLX]

I believe you, really. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I guess I was in it more for the full contact facet than the goal scoring... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[burma_mtw]

In reference to "Topic: MTW veterans; How to make friends with AI and..., and how to make it attack?"

There are twenty different Faction Behavior settings and they can change during the game depending upon various conditions. It could be that the answer to the Friends/Attack question both differs by Faction and does not remain constant. Of course, it could be that the Attack/Don't Attack, Ceasefire/No Ceasfire, Alliance/No Alliance decision logic is all part of a single AI routine and is applied equally to all Factions. I don't know.

There are a considerable number of Variables that could be used in much of the Decision Logic and they are fluid (e.g Loyalty, Happiness, Dread, Influence). There are probably other not-so-obvious Variables. Although all conditions are ultimately reduced to "True/False" the number of purmutations is likely astounding.

Bottom line is there probably is no simple answer.

The good news, as pointed out by experienced players in these and related posts, is that there are some guidlines. It appears generally, for example, that agression breeds agression, and maybe vice versa. For me, the one factor that seems to have the most positive influence on how my games go is Faction Leader Influence.

[andrewt]

I've noticed that AI factions break their alliance with the recipient of an attack. I usually don't start a fight and make alliances first. However, once I get attacked, my allies cancel their alliance with me. The few times I was the aggressor, they cancelled their alliance with the other guy.

Also, if you have any ships in a territory that the enemy can destroy, you will get into war eventually. The Italians and Sicilians especially love to sink fleets weaker than theirs no matter what. You have to build more ships to protect yourself.