my italians.....

[desdichado]

On my current Italian campaign (early, expert) I seem to be suffering a plague of pride throughout my armies. At 1305 I have so far had only 2 decent generals that have not had the secret pride vice (and one of them is a despot). Plenty of my heirs get it as well.

They lose stars before I can even get them into battle and I don't understand why - I have never seen it this bad before. I am not even a major power - I let the Egyptians take that role (although the respawned byz are making a big comeback). I recently built a a new army and had a spare rank 2 general (in case my main general died or got too proud). 5 years in a castle waiting for armies to be trained no problem. I gave him a title and moved him with the main army - next turn no stars - secret pride again.

I also think this vice has a bug - the description says 1- command but they always lose 2 stars.

Has anyone else experienced this playing as Italians? I know it makes the game challenging and I am getting used to fighting with zero valour troops but I like to have a favourite general somewhere but I have to keep retiring them its just frustrating.

Any comments welcome.

[Heraclius]

Seriously, you've never met any italians? That may explain your problem. Bt seriously I've played quite a few games with the Italians on expert (pretty hard with almost nowhere to expand to without angering some mighty power) and never noticed the pride virtue appearing all the time. I'm guessing it must be some kind of bug. You might want to start a new game just to see if it happens again. Good luck.


Au revoir, mes amis

[mav3434]

I don't know why "pride" is in itself a vice. Come on, it shouldn't be all bad. Aren't we all taught to take pride in our work?

I guess we should blame those reserved, self-effacing british devs for discouraging our leaders from expressing their feelings. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[YunDog]

I am playing the Italians at the moment and now you mention it I think a number of my generals do have the secret pride vice- Ihadnt paid much attention to it - but I dont have any high ranking generals - I keep getting them killed Why did I try and hold onto the holylands http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[Red Harvest]

Seems like I got some pride vices as the Italians, but they were outnumbered by the "chinless wonder" and "odd number of toes" vices. One thing that will keep vices down a bit is to have border forts in all provinces. Makes it tougher for anyone to plant vices on you.

[Exile]

Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ Feb. 20 2003,22:25)]...Makes it tougher for anyone to plant vices on you.
eh? can that be done?

I think Pride as a vice means pride to a fault, the person who would do something foolish for the princiapl of the matter and not use reason.

What a strange coincidence that this is so rampant with the Italians, hmm...

[bakdal]

I'm playing Italians expert-ealy too, but so far only to 1225 or so. I too have experienced more vices than with other factions, but not to the extend described.

I build border forts as first action in any conquered province, but I thought that only helped to get those skinny and slimy assasins. That might be the answer. "Descdichado", have you got plenty of border forts?

Heraclius wrote:


Quote[/b] ](pretty hard with almost nowhere to expand to without angering some mighty power)

Is that the case? Attacking the holy land (both on principles and to get some money boosters in especially Antioch) usually only troubles Egypt, which is worth it. Some goodies on the balkans can be achieved, and then have an eye open to rebellions here and there.
I have conquered Serbia, Antioch, Palestine, "the land in between (can't recall the name), Sicily, all of Hungary, Tyrolia and Swizterland, plus Friesland, Denmark and Sweden from the sea, and I have only been excommed once (not effective anymore), and I'm still allied with Byz, Spain, England and Poland.
As Italy and other central powers it is essential to focus on foreign policy. Be an opportunist, and claim and conquer not according to a master plan, but what ever is possible without loosing influence.

Bakdal

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ Feb. 21 2003,04:25)]Seems like I got some pride vices as the Italians, but they were outnumbered by the "chinless wonder" and "odd number of toes" vices. One thing that will keep vices down a bit is to have border forts in all provinces. Makes it tougher for anyone to plant vices on you.
I never heard of that. How can you plant vices on anyone?
The only thing as far as I know, is that spies can be used to reveal any secret hidden vice to the public, thus making the penalties worse, but I never had a spy discover a new vice...
The only one who seems to be able to do somehting of this sort is a high valour Grand Inquisitor. He always seems to fabricate the "Atheist" vice, which is helpful. Of course, only on enemy generals and the like http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Foreign Devil]

Border forts would catch enemy spies, which have the ability to reveal "secret" vices.

This is probably what he's referring to.

[Heraclius]

Thank you bakdal. Food for thought. When I play as Italians I usually do take, Serbia, Croatia, Hungary and Sicily and the Holy land for a while but have always been too afraid of the HRE and excommunication to mount a serious attack north. I will have to try it.

[Husar]

I once played with the Italians, but instead of vices i had a problem with the loyalty of my generals, but perhaps they were so selfish,that they thought they wouldn´t need me.
But it´s very annoying to see what my current best german general suffers from: He has got 9 stars and would get +3 if he attacked with a minotity, but he doesn´ßt get the +3, because the game restricts him to 9 stars. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
If he would have 12 stars his gothic knights would have +4 armour, +4 attack and valour 9 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Sometimes the game does some things we don´t understand, but who cares as long as it stays an interesting and great game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Red Harvest]

Somewhere in the manual or elsewhere it states that spies can be used to uncover hidden vices OR to plant vices. Never tested it because I've found spies and assassins of very limited value. Border forts take them out too easily. Probably should look into this more. About the only agents I really need in the game are religious agents and rarely an assassin to get rid of an inquisitor, etc. Emissaries are of lesser value except as scouts since the AI rarely accepts ceasefires or alliances--if it wants one it offers.

[burma_mtw]

Currently playing the Italians-Expert. Up to year 1219.

I am a very conservative player. Special attention is always placed on keeping my Faction Leader's Influence rating above Four Crowns. Border Forts are always the first thing to go up in any Province (beginning Provinces, early years excepted). A Spy and an Assasin are always present in my important Provinces. Haven't had a single problem with any Generals or Troops. Seven Generals are 6-Star or better. I own 10 Provinces which experience tells me is enough at this time and on pace for "Total" victory.

I don't know why I haven't had any problems with my Generals or troops. Maybe the Faction Leader's consistently high Influence rating has something to do with it. I don't know what "Vices" any of my General's have as I only keep track of their Loyalty (I hate Civil Wars). I only know that the Generals haven't given me any problems. When I start up again tomorrow I will check for Vices and try to watch for any negative behavior. Maybe Vices are of no concern for high Loyalty Generals. The more I read everybody else's posts the more I realize how much is going on in the game that I am totally unaware of.

[Panther]

I havent really played the Itallians but i know that it is good to get forein princesses to marry your heirs ans such so they become good and marry your daughter to generals so they become good

[burma_mtw]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif OK...I checked out my Italian Vices/Virtues. It opened up a whole level of micromanagement that I was blind to in the past. By trying to get those with the best virtues to be Governers (e.g. Steward) and avoid making those with bad virtues (e.g. Blackmailer)leaders of my armies I could "play" the game better. I feel that it would add considerable elapsed time to a Campaign but as a purist I imagine that I will do it more often. Because I use Peasants almost exclusively for Governers, though, it likely won't make much difference. The Generals may be another story.

Knowing about Vices/Virtues does help me understand some things that were confusing me. For example, sometimes I would go into battle with a multi-Stared General only to have my troops fight like somebody just out of bootcamp. Now I understand why.

One thought...not knowing about the myriad Vices/Virtues hasn't hindered my success at Campaigns. The point is that I could have done alot better if I had actually know what I was doing.

[Exile]

Quote[/b] (burma_mtw @ Feb. 21 2003,23:53)]...I don't know what "Vices" any of my General's have as I only keep track of their Loyalty (I hate Civil Wars). I only know that the Generals haven't given me any problems. When I start up again tomorrow I will check for Vices and try to watch for any negative behavior. Maybe Vices are of no concern for high Loyalty Generals. The more I read everybody else's posts the more I realize how much is going on in the game that I am totally unaware of.
You need to check them. There are vices that can make a even a high ranked general absloutely worthless on the battlefield. With a -9 loyalty vice, your troops will rout at first contact with the enemy.

Better to find out beforehand then on the battlefield.

[Michael the Great]

I had a general,who hasn't fought any battles but did get the Chivalric virtute

[powdermonkey]

I love the V&V's - especially when they are contradictory - "Great Warrior" and "Coward" on the same general.
Or "Perversion" and "Pious"........the list goes on http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif