Need help with the Turks

[mav3434]

I recently started a campaign with the Turks, (Hard, Late) and I have never played them before ever. As soon as you start up, you get the choice to build about 15-20 different unit types, most of which I've never even seen before, let alone used (I never had to tangle with the turks past early on my other campaigns.)

So bottom line is, I'm sort of at a loss at what to build. I mean, there's like 3-4 different kinds of horse archers alone And then also all those wierd little archer/melee type guys (turcomans, ottomans, futuwwas) that I know nothing about.

Now, I know JHI's are the ultimate badasses, but I can't build them yet, bc I just started, but until then, I need to know who I should build.

Which units are the most cost effective in each category (cav, arch, spear, inf)? Money is a problem as I only have 2 provinces. Which should I make as my main line spear unit. Saracens? Muwahids? and which of those archer/skirmisher types is the best?

Hopefully you can help this young turk out.

[Leet Eriksson]

the learning curve of playng as muslims is pretty steep.they are cheap,crap and not really good in one on one,but EXTREMLY specialised in their task.you'll need to combine them to form an effective army.lets start with turcoman horse archers,you'll need at least 2-3 of them in your army,these are pretty good in tiring european heavy cavalry.so set them to skirmish and let them rain arrows on their heavy cavalry ones the europeans are tired enough use your horse archers to lead them to your saracen infantry(wich should be your main spear unit until janisary)after the knights engage your saracens,use your turcomen to flank them from the sides or behind.the turcoman foot archers are the same as horse,but slower.their main advantage is that they are fast light infantry and can tire heavy infantry pretty fast,you could also use futuwas for this purpose but beware,they are fanatics and could attack the enemy without waiting for your orders.later on the turks get ottoman infatry,who are the best skirmishers available to the turks(only)and they are extremly versatile.muslims lack heavy infantry,but you could use ghazi as a decent substitute,they lack armor,but are good when flanking,so when your up against those byzantine infantry or men at arms,use your ghazi infantry to flank them while your saracens hold them.the turks also lack heavy cavalry,but ghulams and armenians are pretty good against infantry,provided you use them for flanking or running down archers,later on they get khawarizmians who are good heavy cavalry(idenetical to the kataphracts)but not good against european cavalry(chivalric and above).Turks get a unique light cavalry unit to them,who are the sipahis,they are pretty good against archers and can run down most types of archers,and also good at killing off a routing army.later on when you get sipahis of the port,you could use them as decent heavy cavalry(better than khawrizmians)they also have bows for added danger(use them much like boyars,but don't forget they come in 20 men not 40).

ok lets make a long story short,use your saracens as a main line of defence,ghazi to flank,turcoman to harass,ghulam,armenians or khawarizmians to flank cavalry and run down archers and futtuwa or turcomen foot as archers,sipahi as light cavalry(watch out sipahi of the porte are heavy cavalry,while sipahi are light).

i hope that helps.

EDIT:typo...

[NateEngle]

I agree with Faisal on the steep learning curve - muslim armies operate in a much different model than European ones and it's tough for me to make the shift.

That having been said, my standard unit picks for Turks are fairly pedestrian. Saracens are my front line spearmen - heavier than Muwahids, better numbers in combat, and more men per formation. For archers I tend to prefer troops that can pack in closely, so I pick archers or futuwwas. Desert archers and turcoman foot spread out a lot, and that makes them more difficult to protect behind a front line. For cav I typically run a lot of Turcoman horse - they're a much better horse archer in terms of melee and pursuit, and for heavy/melee cav I'm typically running Armenians or Ghulam cav.

The main gripe I have with Turks isn't the variety of units but rather the dearth of good heavy swordsmen, and the outrageous set of structures needed to roll out JHI. I know people will tell me to use ghazis, but I HATE ghazis due to their light armor and consequent tendency to die like flies under missile fire or in any melee that goes on for more than about 10-20 seconds.

I think that's the main thing that keeps pushing me back to the Christian factions - their unit mix is one that makes sense to me - their heavy infantry really is heavy, and if they get hot and bothered in the desert then that's just too bad.

[Pellinor]

An alternative is look at defeating the enemy at a more strategic/operational level than tactical. I have had notable success in using armies of 16 Turcoman Horse or Horse Archers to *lose* attacking battles.

That is, go in mob-handed and shoot away at any target you can find, with the priority targets being light cavalry and archers. If the enemy closes, run like fun. Don't be afraid to run away: routing means you keep your men alive for the next battle, and any who get caught can be ransomed back. You should be able to avoid contact with any but light cavalry, though, although it may take a lot of micromanaging.

The tactical objective is to kill as many of the enemy as possible for as few casualties as necessary. Good runner vices are not a problem: they may mean your archers flee a bit early, but you're not going to use that general for real battles anyway. You can always use his troops to rebuild damaged units then disband him anyway. Withdraw from battle when tired/out of ammo/hard pressed.

Strategically, you want to win the *third* battle. The first one takes out the enemy's light horse and some of his archers. The second removes his heavy cavalry and more archers. In the third battle, you are fighting a pure infantry army, which can't actually damage you unless you decide to close with them. You should now be able to concentrate your archery on a few units and cause chain routs, winning you the battle and taking the province.

I have occasionally been able to win on the first battle, if the enemy gets sufficiently disorganised. He will chase units individually, so he gets scattered over the map. You can sometimes then work round and hit his archers and artillery, which can cause a chain rout. The risk is that the spears pursuing you may catch up while you melee the archers, but again a bit of micromanaging can help - or just rout and buy them back

This approach works best on the strategic offensive, but an agressive strategic defence can disrupt or prevent many enemy attacks. Just send any light cavalry you have in to cause a bit of havoc.

Your weak infantry arm can then be reserved for defence and garrison duties.

Byzantines are prime targets for this strategy. They generally have no light cavalry, and their heavies are slow. Only a few of your arrows will find targets, but you can wear them down over time.

[Praylak]

Some pretty good advice in here. There's several good ways to set up an army for the Turks, but this is my standard setup I've used with great success.

Early/High - non desert, mutli-role army.

1-Royal Ghulam (general)
4-Saracen Spearmen
4-Futuwwa
2-Armien Heavy Cavalry
2-Turcoman Horsemen
2-Artillary (catapult)
1-Hashishin

Turcoman Infantry from Anatolia are great and are the standard archer for all my garrisons. One could substitute the Futuwwa for them as they are just as good but in a different way, defence. Depends on your strategy, but I like to use the futuwwa as a flanker when the Saracens tie up other infantry. The Futuwwa of course have a good attack.

Late period

1-Royal Ghulam
2-Saracen spearmen
2-Janissary Heavy Infantry
4-Janisssary Infantry
2-Persian Heavy Cavalry (Kwarzamain)[sp]
2-Turcoman Horsemen
2-Artillary (cannon)
1-Hashishin

Works wonders for me. Yes, I'm an arrow freak.

[OleRight]

Gentlemen, gentlemen

I am shocked There has been but the slightest comments on the Janissary Infantry On a different perspective, despite the REAL pain of building the inferstucture for them up, the Jan and JHI make for a sweet little army. In MP I prefer them to any other. Your Saracen will always be the backbone of your army, they really are the largest/best spears availible to you. Janissary infantry gives you bows and a tough light infantry unit. Your JHI is prehaps one of the better infantry units in the game, even if it is fiendishly expensive.

Personally I like (especially in MP where you can pick and choose):
3-4 Janissary infantry
4-5 Saracen spears
4-5 JHI (for anti-cav and flanking)
2-3 kwaraswain (sp)
someimes 2-3 turcoman horse for mobile archer tactics

When you run out of arrows you can attack with your JI, in fact, I have surprised people when I attack and win with my archers. If your not familiar with muslim armies you tend to under appreciate what a high valor JI will do to you.

Muslim armies also tend to rally better than others. I've won battles a number of times after half of my troops routed but I was able to reform them and get them back in the fight. Christian armies seem to be stronger but more brittle. The key is to use your advantages: speed, rally ability, charge bonus and flexibility. You want to minimize the disadvantages, low morale, poor defense being the main ones.

[HopAlongBunny]

Most everything has been said. Hold and flank; you have excellent flankers in futuwwa and ghazi...even those "other" spears esp in the desert.

Desert battles; attack or defence; run the opponent ragged with turcoman horse. If possible I don't even engage the enemy until my turcomans are spent. On attack it diverts units allowing you to concentrate force and rout an exhausted opponent; often the AI (I've seen humans do it in replays too) will get tired of waiting while you run around with HA's and commit piecemeal.

The same idea applies on defence. Nickel and dime the opponent to death during the opening phase of the battle.

Camels Camels Camels
In the desert they tire MUCH slower than any other unit. Bonus vs horse (awesome againt catholic knights) They are not as spectacular out of the desert, but still very effective. I usually try to get them into a flank, but have had them eat up knights head-on as well (exhausted from chasing turcomans of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif If you really want to micro-manage have them as your initial reinforcements in the desert; they will be fresher than any other unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif