Disappointing cavalry losses...

[Kristaps]

Has anyone else noticed that knight-level cavalry tends to suffer the heaviest losses when facing routing troops? The worst example I've seen so far was a unit of chivalric knights that routed a peasant unit wihout a single loss and then all of a sudden lost almost half unit to another routing peasant mob... I wonder how this is programmed and what is the logic behind it...



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Havok]

this has happened to me quite a few times also.... it is very frustrating. When a group of soldiers are routing they are running for there lives at all costs. Its kinda wierd that they kill some of your guys in the process.

i would like to know the answer to this question also. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

becuase Chivalric knights are NOT used for routing,thats why the europeans get hobilars.

[BDC]

Maybe because they are chasing someone down, the guy behind is faced with the unarmoured back and it is just too tempting not to throw his axe at it and hope for the best, even if he had no chance in a straight fight.

[Heraclius]

When playing catholic factions I always use hobbies to take down routers (much faster) so I can't really comment about knights. When playing the Byzantines I have noted that the Byzantine cavalry and especially the kataphrakoi will take the odd loss when chasing down that moving cash (as I refer to routers when I'm in a good mood, bad mood and its throat slash all the way). But anyway I'm talking losses of about four or five men. How many knights were in that group that you lost half of, kristaps?

[Hakonarson]

Quote[/b] (BDC @ Feb. 27 2003,15:33)]Maybe because they are chasing someone down, the guy behind is faced with the unarmoured back and it is just too tempting not to throw his axe at it and hope for the best, even if he had no chance in a straight fight.
Yep - pursuers get all broken up too, and often get hacked down from behind

Best thing is to use cheap mobile troops to pursue and to rally the guys who actualy won the victory.

the new troops will probably have a much better formation than the victors and will be less likely to suffer this sad fate

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]The worst example I've seen so far was a unit of chivalric knights that routed a peasant unit wihout a single loss and then all of a sudden lost almost half unit to another routing peasant mob...

Well they do say that sh|te happens

I'm happy to say I've never experienced these kinds of losses in a rout but I have seen some high value cavalry troopers get killed while pursuing units of comparable value, especially the ones that possess anti-cavalry bonuses. Did your Chiv Knights have their back to the routing mob when they rushed past them? Is it possible that the peasant unit received some charge bonus as they ran into those Chiv Knights?

More importantly, why in blazes are you using Chivalric Knights to run down Peasants? They're simply not worth the effort, especially when higher value enemy units are within reach. The bounty from captured peasants won't exactly make your royal treasury overflow with florins. I am loathe to even waste a volley of arrows on such plebeian rabble, especially when there's higher quality meat that needs butchering... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Kristaps]

hehehe, it was a peasant revolt that I had to quell: no higher end enemy units around, hehe. just peasants and archers... and yes, the knights had their backs to the routing peasant mob (the knights were pursuing another routing peasant unit) when they suffered the losses. the unit was full strength before the encounter: 40 men.

as to hobilars: I don't even bother about bringing those to northern european battles in the late. they run with the same speed as chivalric knights so there is no gain in speed if using hobilars: steppe cavalry or mounted crossbowmen are a different story. those do run faster than chivalric knights.

my typical late period rebellion quelling force: 8 serpentine crews, 4 pavise arbalesters (valor 6 before general's stars) + 3 units of chivalric knights + a unit of royal knights (whichever prince I've decided to train)... imagine the slaughter... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[econ21]

I do experience some attrition in pursuits, but from my understanding of the combat system, knights should be less subject to that than lighter troops. I do lose more knights than I feel I should, although not large quantities. I wonder if there is something else going on?

As others have said, it is important not to interpose your pursuers between the routers and their intended exit, as they may fight to get out. There was an expression from history about this - something about leaving open a golden bridge or some such.

[Orda Khan]

Sometimes you are wiser not to chase as all units suffer losses by chasing routers. Make sure they have no fight left in them and let them run

..........Orda

[econ21]

Orda - are you suggesting you take losses on a kind of "attritional basis" rather than as a result of the 1 on 1 kind of combats that we know the stats for? It would explain what I observed and would support the recommendation of others here to save your cheapest horse troops for this purpose.

[Kristaps]

I asked the question to see if anyone {a programmer? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif} would hint how the routing encounter calculation is actually carried out. I've witnessed very strange losses of elite troops to routers: i.e., I couldn't see any reason why they would have lost anyone on replay when paying close attention to what was going on between the pursuers and routers.

[longjohn2]

When a routing man encounters an enemy, he tries to go around, if not he fights. Routers, do get a big penalty, but do get bonuses, such as attacking the rear.
Losing half a unit of knights to peasants would seem unlucky, but desperate men can be dangerous. Take Sun Tzu's advice, and always leave a cornered army a way out.

[Kristaps]

okies, thanks that about clears my question http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif as to losing half a unit of knights -- well, they were run over by about 600 peasants... so, yes -- they were very unlucky... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Orda Khan]

Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ Feb. 28 2003,17:22)]When a routing man encounters an enemy, he tries to go around, if not he fights. Routers, do get a big penalty, but do get bonuses, such as attacking the rear.
Losing half a unit of knights to peasants would seem unlucky, but desperate men can be dangerous. Take Sun Tzu's advice, and always leave a cornered army a way out.
Very wise words from Longjohn2.This is exactly what I meant, I have seen routing units running through enemy units (mine included)in 4v4 online games and watched them hacking men down as they go. I get out of their way now.
Let them run

......Orda