Something weird just happened

[Jabberwock]

Something bizarre just happened tonight...

Playing as the Byz Early Expert c.1145 (prepatch). Repeatedly big battles happening every turn on my Egyptian frontier. I move in a full stack led by my 7* uncle-to-the-king to relieve a siege in Rum.
Bugger. The Fez heads move 4 more stacks in at the same time.
There's no way I'm retreating my top general, and there's definitely no room in the keep for the majority. I decide to fight to the death.
I have about 1100 assorted troops (Only 2 Katz, plus spearmen, Treb archers, HAs and some misc bits and pieces). And I'm on the attack http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
They have 4000 and a handful. Some peasants, but also plenty of camels, nubians, mam cav etc.
Our armies started either side of a sizeable hill. I charge up for position, get to the top, and find the enemy are buggering off http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
All 16 units legged it, and the process repeated 4 times My troops stood bemused on top of the hill having a cuppa.

What the hell happened? I can't remember how good their general was, but they had some decent generals around the area at the time.
I was expecting to get whipped, 4:1 on the attack, but they turned tail and marched off Why?

Anyone else seen similar? Is it just a pre-patch jobby? Any explanations? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[HopAlongBunny]

Have had the same thing happen. 4000 Mongol's invade against 1000 English. First wave runs on, HA's look at my defence and the entire Horde turns around and runs away. Happened every year for 5 years...got really annoying. Finally trapped and killed most of them with deep flankers and a rush as they turned to withdraw.

The People of Novgorod (sp) did the same thing in the same province.

I am playing the patched version, so it is not a pre-patch bug...I guess its a game "feature" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Heraclius]

jabberwock, what was your general's dread level? Because with very high dread level generals the AI's soldiers will sometimes just get spooked turn around and march away. Has happened to me a few times too.

[Monk]

same has happened to me, im not sure what causes it. but whatever works i guess http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Lord Of Storms]

I had a similar experience in a mod I made to play as the Swiss(I love the SAP'S) anyway I was the defender in Tyrolia very mountainous terrain and the HRE was coming at me with a numerically superior force royal knights, archers, spears, and other asst. units I positoned myself high on the mt. face adjacent to a wooded area I had some archers, spears, chiv,sgts and Swiss armored pikemen I placed to units of pikes and spears in the woods left my archers and sgts out in the open as bait well they took their sweet time to get to me some very erratic posturing on the AI'S part well when they reached my bait units my archers opened up I put my sgts on attack and charged them from the woods with my remaining units. When this happened they immediatley turned tail and ran without so much as a few soldiers engaging . They ran screaming like a bunch of slack jawed faggots up the hill and out faster then they came. I think the high mts. have something to do with my scenario ... http://www.smilies-world.de/Smilies/Smilies_klein_1/smha.gif

[Praylak]

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Feb. 28 2003,21:58)]jabberwock, what was your general's dread level? Because with very high dread level generals the AI's soldiers will sometimes just get spooked turn around and march away.

Whow, really? Is that why this happens? That is so cool.

"Christ help us., The general of the opposing army is the dreaded Italian Butcher Withdraw at once"

I have experienced it on rare occasions, and I never paid any attention as to why it happened. How high does ones dread have to be to get this "cause fear" effect?

[Red Harvest]

There are some easy explanations for this, dread is not one of them. Most likely the opposing general having been whipped and run several times has progressed through the "good runner" & "doubtful courage" vices to whatever that next one is. It gives -9 morale. Against a high star general all of his units will rout without any contact being made. Your general probably has "Field Defense Specialist" or some such which gives extra stars.

[Jabberwock]

Hi guys, thanks for the input. I'm glad I'm not alone. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

As for "easy answers", I'm not so sure.

My general is Dread 5, only middlingly scary.
He had no V+Vs apart from "argumentative"
I was on the attack, not defence.
The opposing general never gave me a good chance to have a look at him. But the AI certainly didn't have any with "doubtful courage" or "coward" (the next one Red), as I'd been spying around. It's possible he was a "good runner".
The AI didn't rout either, they maintained a good distance then, "marched quickly" off...

Anyway, I got the province back, and my general got "skilled attacker" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Still weird though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Orda Khan]

You say he was 7* and also titled? This is not unfamiliar as it used to happen in Shogun also. My view of it is the enemy make a stand but then see his Standard enter the field. The realisation they are facing seasoned troops, they withdraw instead.

I have had occasions where I am invaded by 2 factions. A message said..'the Egyptians have decided they can't win the battle and are retreating'
When I deployed to face the French, guess who were marching on me from the other direction? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I put it down to them thinking all was lost then receiving news that the French were also attacking, so changed their minds. To be honest I'd like to see more of this, it keeps you on your toes

........Orda

[rasoforos]

it happens to me everytime when i play against the mongols. I ussually fortify georgia and wait for them. They come , i brake their first wave of attack and then they retreat. Next year they do the same and it goes on and on.

[Lord Of Storms]

hey your right on Red HarvestMy Swiss King has the Field Defense Specialist Virtue. Thanks for clearing that one up. I still think the hilly terrain has some effect I mean the AI was very erratic in its attacks in Tyrolia...http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/anym/brave.gif

[Red Harvest]

Terrain does come into account on the field. The terrain modifiers seem be factored in when the AI decides to flee. If you are defending mountainous Tyrolia, the AI seems to be able to look at the modifiers and decide that it has no chance, then it will bail.

I noticed a similar circumstance vs. Turcoman and Horse Archers the other day (they attacked in superior numbers.) I was cornering and killing fragments of the force, but not the commander, and the remnants kept coming back to harrass...until I headed for the trees to rest. Then they all fled the field at once. Why? When I entered the tiny patch of woods the AI recognized it was helpless against my infantry in the woods (+ modifiers for me, - for them) and it was already hopelessly outnumbered, so it tore out of there like a scalded dog. Pretty humorous since I had been chasing it around for 20 minutes before that...destroying it piecemeal.

[hoom]

Yeah.
The combined negative morale of a mixture of fighting uphill, troops apearing from ambush, fighting against higher morale troops and an enemy emplaced in a strong position can result in the AI withdrawing without battle.

I had a battle vs the Horde where I just plonked my whole army deep into the woods because it was steppe, I was outnumbered and Byzantines don't get decent spear units.
Up marched the Horde, probing the patches of trees as it went to find my ambush.
Eventually the enemy seemingly figured out where I was by elimination and started probing the edges of the forest.
It kept probing to try to find my whole army but couldn't because there was a wide arc of Byzantine Infantry guarding my front and flanks so it never saw my whole army but it did try it on at my left flank a bit and lost ~20 Mongol Heavy Cavalry to my ~5 Byz Inf.
Then they withdrew completely.

I have had armies stroll up to the base of the mountain and see my army arrayed at the top and then just turn around and walk away because it knows that it would loose trying to fight up that slope.

Sometimes they just withdraw straight away.

Sometimes they make a bogus attack/stand while you are approaching. This can fool you into not charging immediately with all your cavalry because while you are setting up for the attack, the bulk of their force is withdrawing but those units standing make you think the enemy is just repositioning as it does sometimes. Then once the bulk of the enemy is safely close to the edge of the map the rearguard withdraw too.

I have bitter experience with the morale penalty of large numbers of enemy appearing from hiding in forrests.
Attacking a neighbouring rebel/minor faction with a minimal army, I found that their army was split, with a good number hiding in trees and the other part out in the open well away from the others.
So naturally I took out the enemy in the open first.
Then I formed up for an attack into the forrest.
As I started to enter the forrest, a whole bunch of spear units appeared from ambush simultaneously and charged at my men who promptly fled at great loss quickly followed by my arbalesters and Kats that were I thought safely located a distance back from the edge of the forrest http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif

[max_killer_payne]

I was playing as the Byzantines had 3,000 men (mostly Kharpoitkai, I dont have a clue how you spell it, Byzantine Infantry, Bulgarian Bulgrands, and Urban Miltia, they charged with 6,000 men, after one volley of arrows, they turned and ran, and they're general wasnt dead, it was wierd

[baz]

oh well, kinda weird though as with that massive number advantage you'd think they would fancy there chances ..

[Red Harvest]

From what I've seen, the AI compares what it has on the field vs. what you have on the field and does its estimates of morale and victory their. It may factor in reserves, but I'm not sure how much. This actually makes some sense. If you are hopelessly outclassed with your best 900 men on the field vs. the enemy army, then you would be crazy to fight it out then send another 2,000 to the slaughter later.

I actually find it's strategic based tactical map decisions to be pretty good in this regard. If only it had such clarity on the strategic map

[Rowan11088]

Yeah, this has happened to me before too. I had some funny battles with the Danish in the early game after they backstabbed me and took Saxony. They had a miniscule army, but 6 heirs with royal knights, so it got annoying. Anyway, I cornered their emperor in Sweden with a much larger group, and started surrounding the hill he was on, and he suddenly ran off and took his artillery crewmen with him. He didn't "run away", simply marched quickly off into the horizon...I tried to chase him down, but my infantry weren't fast enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[cugel]

"If you are hopelessly outclassed with your best 900 men on the field vs. the enemy army, then you would be crazy to fight it out then send another 2,000 to the slaughter later.
"

Well, not so ridiculous as you seem to think. The Turks essentially did this to the crusader army at Nicopolis. They let the crusader knights wear themselves out fighting uphill against their light cavalry and foot, then brought on fresh troops to counter-attack when the exhausted knights reached the top disorganized. Result, while they couldn't take the knights head on and hope to win, they wore them down and eventually cut them to pieces. Pretty smart strategy IMO.