Wierd

[Hendon]

When i attacked the swiss i had mosly hobilars 7 of them to be exact http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif The swiss had 3 swiss armoured pikemen.
The wierd bit was when i was forced to attack with my hobilars 2 on each troop and i let one stand they won thats kinda strange and i only lost abaout 20 troops in each troop.

/ME http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Lord Of Storms]

what are some of the specific stats ,battle modifiers, valor,terrain etc. these things play an integral part in every battle and can aid in finding the reason to a one sided battle... http://www.gifs.net/animate/siren.gif

[Kraxis]

Did you fight downhill with a great general against a bad Swiss general???

But if not then I would have to say something is very wrong.

[Hendon]

I fougth on flat land with a newbie general.

/ME http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Rowan11088]

did their general have a trait along the lines of "good runner"? negative command stars maybe? Were your hobilars very high valor and/or were their SAP very low valor? I can't imagine any other explanation.

[Kraxis]

I doubt Morale has anything to do with this, the Hobs killed many more SAPs than they lost... That alone should be a point to fear.

It has to be a fluke, the SAPs are the best anti cav out there.

[Rowan11088]

I think morale has everything to do with it. He said "I won"
not "I killed them all"...he probably means they routed. Even with only a small morale penalty of some sort, having 2 cavalry charged at one unit (probably flanked somehow too, considering there are two cavalry units, one's gotta hit the side a little bit) and being outnumbered by 280 to 180 could cause an easier rout...

[Kraxis]

7*40=280... 3*96=288...
So the numbers are equal.

The fight might have been with flanking, but the way he presents it makes me believe it was head on. Flanking attacks would naturally make it more likely that the Hobs won.

[Hendon]

I attacked nearly from the flanks in each hob troop (2 horses in each) attacked the flanks.


/ME http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[A.Saturnus]

Did you play on easy? Did you mod the Hobilars to be Lancers? I guess not. Strange things happen.


10...

[econ21]

This is interesting. My first reaction was "No way" but if the Hobilars flanked the SAPs, I think historically, they should win. A lot of guys huddled together holding 18 foot pikes facing the wrong way sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Now in the game, flanking will take away the rank bonuses that make the pike particularly effective. With no rank bonuses the SAPs attack would be 4 (2 base + 2 anti-cav) against the hobilars defence of 2. The hobilars base attack would be 2 against the unranked SAPs defence of 11 (base 5 + 6 anti-cav). Not good. Add a 6 charge bonus to the hobilars and it is still not looking good.

The key must be the flanking bonus. I don't have the guide to hand, but in Shogun it was +5 - still not enough. This takes the hobilars to 13 attack on the charge - making them even with SAPs. But also there is mention of a +12 to charging into the flank/rear. If that is true, we have a hobilar attack on impact of 20 (2+6+12). With possible follow through and/or recharging, I can just about see the hobilars winning.

[Added now I have the guide: it is +5 for flank and +2 extra for charge. So the on impact the hobilars have a 15 against the SAPs defence of 11. It still looks possible, but substantially watered down from Shogun].

[Lord Of Storms]

OK I have a faq here from MTW. Com and it has positonal bonuses as follows +5 attack for flanking +7 for rear +2 for charging into the flank/rear +6 when pushing the enemy back and lasltly +5 when squeezed to tight I still would like to see a replay of this particular battle I have a little trouble seeing one of the best anti-cav units(IMHO) being bested so easily . here is something else from that faq that might be of some interest it is the Algorithm for hand to hand combat for MTW , df=attack - defend - chance to kill =1.9% *1.2 ^df also defense=base + valor bonus+ shield (+1 small +2 large +3 pavise) attack= base + valor bonus + weapon bonus in MTW about every second, there is a round of combat where each unit's modified attack and defense values are compared and calculated. http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Clever.gif

[Lord Of Storms]

Okay this was kind of bugging me so I did a test I tried to recreate the battle from what little I read in Hendon's first thread . So here is what I did I went to custom battle I chose Germany and the Pike unit is The Elite Schwertlanzers (from the 69_unitLords add-on) just like SAP'S in size and strength (the best match for the test) and the French hosted the Hobilars I chose 3 pike units to 7 hobilar and did 3 test with varying valor-weapon-armor settings no distinct or overwhelming advatage to either side ,but being an elite unit the pikers get 3v-2w-2a the hobies in test 1 get variable 3-2-2 and 3-2-3 . I chose a level field at Agincourt spring-normal positoned my pikes in the open flat area of the field on hold positon . I let the hobbies posture and positon themselves some broke away and tried to flank some came to the side when they came close ,which took awhile they were very hesitant to engage, anyway the first exchange was fast and brutal the pikes lunged at the hobbies and wasted at least half a unit then the rest was history it was no contest the pikes never lost ground. the Hobbies kept running to regroup then would try a charge but to no avail they just could not stand up to the pikes I did 3 tests in all to see if the outcome would vary it did but very little . The pikes always had the upper hand and won all three battles . The last one they lost the most men 77 in all I gave the hobbies 3w-3v-3a but it did not help I think it was just the 3 armor that helped them hold up a little longer but the end result was the same here are the final tallies test # 1 hobilars= 213 dead Pikes = 22 dead test # 2 Hobilars= 228 dead Pikes= 21 dead test # 3 Hobilars= 225 dead Pikes= 77 dead. So I think the results are pretty consistent and you can see the replays of mine if you wish just post your e-mail here and I will send them to you.Now mind you theres alot of things that decide the outcome of a battle and many variabled to consider ,the test I did is only a comparison and not the final word , like I said many variables exist and I did not have all the info on Hendons battle I did the best I could with the info I had. And flukes do happen I just thought the test would be interesting. Try your own also and see what happens...http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/anym/brave.gif

[NateEngle]

My bet is that this had a lot to do with decisions forced by the strategic AI, a factor that might not be easy to reproduce with a custom battle. I'm assuming Hendon's action was done in SP (because there's no way any self-respecting human would have just stood there while 6 hobilars rode around their flank).

Anyway, assuming that the spare hobilar was placed in front to "demonstrate" (hold the SAPs in position by making them think they faced an actual battle line), I could see how the remaining guys could swing around the ends, launch flank attacks, and get the SAPs to break. It's definitely an impressive accomplishment. When I fight SAPs I would never think of doing it with just 7 hobilars, so it's possible the computer was suffering from a similar AI equivalent of a case of over-confidence.

In any event I empathize with the report that about half the hobs were killed in the battle - as a rule I'm hard on my horsemen. My infantry and missile troops gain valor fairly steadily, but for some reason any of my horses that gain valor just end up squandering it all by getting chewed up by enemy heavy cav while I'm in the process of chasing routed infantry from the field (similar to what I imagine happened to the British heavy brigade after their charge against d'Erlon's division in the center of the line at Waterloo - it was glorious on the way down the hill, but tough going on the way back with blown horses and Ney's cuirassiers cutting the stragglers to pieces.