New Mongol unit needed

[Kraxis]

I cincerely feel the Golden Horse lacks something in terms of units. Their horse archers were not generic and they had several classes (if they could be deemed that way).

Some time ago I think Magyar mentioned something that stirred my mind... The Mangudai... Those lovely horse archers (and uniques for the Mongols) from AOK.

I have always hated the lack of potency in the GH Horse Archers, not because they are weak, they are strong enough but they don't fit the role of elite horse archers in my mind.
And the Heavies, they just seem out of place at times. I mean royal units??? Come on, didn't the general have a bow, and wouldn't he use that rather than a lance? The more the reason for the Mangudai, a proper royal unit.

Since the GH Horse Archers are actually only fast Mamluke HA, I propose we keep that line making the Mangudai fast Byzantine Cavalry just with Elite status on top of the Disciplined one. Also their charge should be upped to 5 to represent the light lance the Mongols often carried.

[Divine Wind]

I loved the Mangudai in AOK. I always felt the mongol horse archers were under powered and weak compared to what i expected of them. Introducing the Mangudai would be welcomed all round i think. Espicially from our Mongol loving friends http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Orda Khan]

Have you guys checked out Orda's Horde? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The Horde get a new unit - Auxiliary Cavalry. The Mangudai were the inspiration behind this unit, which is a skirmisher cav unit who throw javelins. The problem was creating a unit which fires 2 projectiles, namely bow and arrows and the javelins - which as you correctly stated were carried by the 'Light Cavalry', for this term I think best describes the majority of the Mongol ranks. The Horse Archer units have been improved in terms of charge and number of arrows. So using these two units we can achieve a more historic feel to gameplay. The Mangudai as an Elite unit basically were the units employed to harass and taunt the opposion into engagement, real tough front line troops. This can be achieved on OH mod by the use of Horse Archers and Aux Cav, the Steppe and Alan Cav can find quick flanks during the confusion and the coup de grace delivered by the Heavy Cav ( which have also been improved - slightly faster and slightly better h2h )

Created more as a means to Campaign as the Horde, there are extra infantry units too. Here is a list and also the theory behind them :-

Saracen Infantry, Muwahid Foot Soldiers.....Included because of the alliance that formed between the Golden Horde and Mameluk Egypt. Historically accurate? Maybe not but viable enough if we accept these as Egyptian units.

Militia Sergeants, Feudal Sergeants and Halbediers......
As Russia was part of the Mongol fief and armies such as Alexander Nevski's were trained , clothed and kitted out in Mongol fashion I thought, as their Khan, I could call on some conscripts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

There are other changes but these are more in line with history, Alans are not available in 'Early' just Steppe and Horse Archers.
The intention was not for one minute to create an Invincible Horde, what fun would that be after 5 minutes right? At least now they are more like 'real' Mongols.

You can also use OH online and this I can confirm is brilliant fun. As I stated they aren't invincible and against heavy factions like Spain it's flippin' hard but what a fun game it is. In fact it's such good fun I think I would rather use the Horde on OH and lose than play normal games http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I had given some thought to the 'Imperial Guard'. What to do here? Heavy Cav with better charge bonus? Better h2h? Both? What distinguishing feature would they have for identification? Something on the standard? Different colour?
What size unit? 40? mmm too big. 20? Why not just buy 40 Heavy Cav?
As you can see this was a bit of a dilema so it was better to stick with Heavy cav.

So there you go , give them a try and if you want to know more about the Auxiliary Cav, see what Ckrisz has to say about them in his post in the Dungeon

.......Orda

[andy119]

a decent horse archer unit is certainly needed they just arent effective enough for mp. Yeah they are fun just they are poor

[Kongamato]

My suggestion for improving Mongol Horsearchery is to increase the armor-piercing ability of their arrows. The Mongols definitely had the arrows to do this, and it should be reflected appropriately.

[Ckrisz]

The Auxiliary Cav in the OrdaHorde mod are great. Fast, tough light cavalry with javelins ... like Jinettes on steroids. Great for ruining heavy knights' day. Cheap and easy to build, it's fun to use two of these units to give Crusader knights a rabbit to chase and when they regroup from their charge (failed because the Auxiliaries are so much faster), watch them get savaged by a few javelin flurries. They run out of javelins fast, but they serve quite well as a fast flanking cav. Charge your Heavies into some Halberdiers or spears and send the Auxiliaries into the rear, and watch the windrows pile up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

In the Orda Horde mod, the Horse Archers are superb. Their arrows seem to be far more powerful than the average horse archer, who can maybe kill 5-6 armored guys before they have to run for it; GH Horse Archers in the mod can take down at least twice that number; they also fire faster. Get three or four units of Horse Archers blazing away and watch the bodies pile up. Mongol archery as it was supposed to be http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Orda Khan]

HORSE ARCHERS http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Did I mention they have better armour piercing capabilities, more arrows, better charge bonus and improved h2h? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Definitely 'Dark horses' http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Andy, Kongamato, try them I'm sure you'll like them

.........Orda

[Terrax]

Hey Orda, can you recomend a good non fiction book on the conquests of the Horde?

[Ckrisz]

I'm not Orda, but here are some excellent books on the Mongols:

THE DEVIL'S HORSEMEN: THE MONGOL INVASION OF EUROPE by James Chambers
(indispensable for the conquest of Russia, Hungary, Khwarezm, and Baghdad)

http://www.amazon.com/exec....=507846 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1842122436/qid=1046803826/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-3543310-0685452?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

GENGHIS KHAN: HIS LIFE AND LEGACY by Paul Ratchnevsky

A good scholarly bio of Genghis.

http://www.amazon.com/exec....s=books (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0631189491/ref=pd_sim_books_4/103-3543310-0685452?v=glance&s=books)

THE HISTORY OF THE MONGOL CONQUESTS by J. J. Saunders

Not a military history, but a good generaly history that shows the Mongols were merely the greatest in a long line of steppe nomad tribes that established empires in Asia & Europe. Very good for the post-Ogodei empire and how the Mongol Empire eventually splintered and fell.


http://www.amazon.com/exec....s=books (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812217667/ref=pd_sim_books_1/103-3543310-0685452?v=glance&s=books)

[Orda Khan]

Yes I must echo Ckrisz's suggestions, Devil's Horsemen is a wonderful read.
Also I highly recommend 'The Mongols' by David Morgan,

Peter Brent's 'The Mongol Empire' is an interesting read though there are some conflicting accounts ( Qaidu commanding forces in Poland, when he would have actually been about 10 years old ) Apart from that, very nice, a good read.

Now then, what I want to know is where can I obtain an English translation of 'The Secret History of The Mongols'???

[Magyar Khan]

The Secret History of the Mongols", by Francis Woodman Cleaves, Harvard University Press, 1982.

The Secret History of the Mongols", is the first literary historical work of the Mongols ever written. It is believed to have been written in the year 1240 A.D., however it is not known who the writer was. This work is mainly a history of the establishment of the Mongol Empire from the end of the 12th century to the beginning of the 13th century. It is also a valuable resource of information pertaining to the social customs, laws, mythology, and migratory division of the Mongol People. In whole, "The Secret History of the Mongols" is a reserve of Mongol history, language, literature, and culture in one volume.

Rate: 9 out of 10

at my mongol site orda...

[Pablo Sanchez]

I think, with the Orda mod, the Mongols lack only one important historical detail: truly great commanders. Many historians rate Jebe and Subotai as the best cavalry commanders in the history of man, with good reason. I think they should get at least a few Byzantine-style fellows http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ckrisz]

Totally agree, Pablo. Subedei should be the absolute maximum number of stars, and generals like Kadan (the commander at Liegnitz; I know I'm spelling his name wrong) were certainly the equal of anyone in Europe.

[Orda Khan]

Extremely grateful to you MagyarKhan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I've read exerpts of the Secret History on the Net but never come across the book.

About truly Great Commanders...Wouldn't this be giving the Horde too much of an edge? We don't want things to be easy. As an argument I would suggest all Great Generals learned their craft and gained notoriety in so doing. As an example of this, I started a Campaign and had a single star Horse Archer by the name of Orda ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) He ended up as a 6 star General with the virtues 'skilled attacker','expert defender' and 'skilled risky attacks'..vice 'not so bold' appeared from somewhere http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif that seems a contradiction but I didn't mind....You should have seen his army at work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

My super loyal 8 star General Subedei was the guy who led the rebellion in my Civil War. I'm happy to build my armies and watch my Generals get the promotion they deserve http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

..........Orda