Why do loose order units get a charge bonus?

[econ21]

I've been looking through the unit production excel files provided by CA and seeing how systematically they have built up the stats is very impressive.

One thing I had not appreciated is the formation type - close, loose and open. There is a table I think indicating the area occupied by the unit - I think this is what some people mean when they say a unit has a smaller foot print.

I am wondering what this implies for combat? Do close order units can get more men into combat? Does formation not matter after a point when units all get muddled up into a melee? Is there any significance at all to the formation or is just cosmetic?

On a related point, charge bonuses vary by another aspect of formation. "Loose_melee" formation foot gets a +4 charge compared to a usual +2 for "close_melee". This helps explain the, IMO, rather overpowered charge bonuses of the Gallowglass and Woodsmen. But I wonder what is the "real life" rationale for this extra bonus?

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ Mar. 05 2003,12:25)]On a related point, charge bonuses vary by another aspect of formation. "Loose_melee" formation foot gets a +4 charge compared to a usual +2 for "close_melee". This helps explain the, IMO, rather overpowered charge bonuses of the Gallowglass and Woodsmen. But I wonder what is the "real life" rationale for this extra bonus?
Hmmm... didn't notice that... could you show me the spots in the file?

[longjohn2]

Generally once melee is entered, formation spacing doesn't count for much.
Some of the loose order units get a bigger charge bonus as they can charge a bit harder due to not worrying about formation, and having enough spacing around them not to have to worry about the tripping over the guys next to them.

[econ21]

Thanks, Longjohn - I have come to the conclusion that almost every thing about the unit stats has a rationale, so I was curious to know what it was in this case.

Kraxis - I am referring to the "crusaders_unit_prod11.xls" you can find somewhere in the downloads section. I only found that file the other day and it's a revelation.
There is worksheet called "tables" - on it, imbetween the table for shields and that for horse armour, there is a table for "Charge factors".

[Pablo Sanchez]

Realistically speaking, it's hard to maintain a tight formation on the run, weapons at the ready--particularly atop a horse bearing a lance.

[Puzz3D]

Units in loose formation get a -2 to morale.

[CBR]

No no Yuuki...Simon is talking about loose order troops not the loose order formation.

CBR

[Michael the Great]

Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ Mar. 05 2003,15:47)]Generally once melee is entered, formation spacing doesn't count for much.
Some of the loose order units get a bigger charge bonus as they can charge a bit harder due to not worrying about formation, and having enough spacing around them not to have to worry about the tripping over the guys next to them.
Did CA also consider the weapons used by the unit?
Because I see that light lance armed cavalry has a smaller charge factor than heavy lance cavalry.
And why do Nizari,using swords have a 6 charge(i think)?
It seemes to me that the morale also has an effect determining the charge bonus-Ghazi Infantry,with normal axes have a "very strong charge"(6),while being fanatical(or so sais their unit description),they do have an excellent morale,but Abyssinian Guards,with bigger axes I believe and excellent morale have only a peasant-worthy 4 charge bonus...
What are the factors that CA considered when they included the charge bonuses for different units??

[CBR]

Charge bonus is based on weapon, troop class and charge class plus shield used (large shields give +1 charge)

Nizaris

troopclass: zealots. High morale, lots of attack and crap defense plus charge bonus of 2

Charge class: foot loose melee. Loose ordered troops that gives 4 in charge bonus

They use swords but that doesnt give anything in charge bonus.

Axes give 2 in charge. Heavy western lances is 4 while light eastern lances is 2

Ghazis is like nizaris just equipped with a mace that, like swords, doesnt give any charge bonus.

Abyssinian Guards have axes, classed as "standard" foot melee (only +2 charge) and troop class is guard (no charge bonus)

Here is a list of all troop classes

KNIGHT
LATER_KNIGHT
FOOT_KNIGHT
LEVIES
ZEALOTS
BARBARIAN
POOR
NORMAL
GOOD
POOR_MISSILE
MISSILE
GOOD_MISSILE
POOR_TRIBAL
TRIBAL
GOOD_TRIBAL
POOR_MISSILE_TRIBAL
MISSILE_TRIBAL
GOOD_MISSILE_TRIBAL
GUARD
SPECIAL_FORCES
SHOCK

If you want more info you can download it here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

http://www.3ddownloads.com/strateg....les.zip (http://www.3ddownloads.com/strategy-gaming/totalwar/FAQs/mtw/Xcel_Files_v11statsfiles.zip)

CBR

[Kraxis]

Aha...

So the charge is determined from the classes of the troops, not from what seems right.

It makes sense, as Vikings and MAA all have 3 Charge and they have large shields and Spearmen have a charge of 5. It is obvious the uneven number comes from the +1 to charge from the shield. Nice to know and quite realistic too.

[Michael the Great]

Ghazis use axes not maces,and why don't axes ad swords give any charge bonuses?(why do FMAA and Vikings 3 charge???)
Also,if western heavy lances give +4 in the charge,then why do Chivalric Knights have 8 charge?
Are there two types of axes and swords just like lances? coz I can see that Vikings and Ghazis have shorter axes than Varagians and Abyssinians...and gallows have long swords compared to broadswords used by FMAA......
Isn't this info in the crusader_unit_prod11 file?

P.S. this is great stuff,I really enjoy this topic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Beelzebub]

Maybe for chiv knights, 100 pounds of heavy plate, and a huge war horse similarly equipped with heavy plate helps it out a bit when charging http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[econ21]

Michael the Great, if you can you really should download the file and look at the tables yourself, it's fascinating. There are only half a dozen tables all on one sheet.

The information in the crusader_unit_prod11.xls file is used to generated the *.txt file, but is not fully reproduced in that file.

To answer, your specific queries, yes there are two types of axe foot weapons: "AXE" is the two-handed axe (or greatsword)which gives +3 att, +1 def, +2 charge but precludes a shield in melee; "MACE" which is for one-handed AP weapons like hand-axes and maces which gives +2 attack.

Only the AXE and pointy things give charge bonuses. I suspect handweapons come into their own in the melee proper, whereas the pointy things are especially fearsome when formed up in a long line, crashing towards you.

The FMAA and Vikings get a +3 charge because all melee foot get a +2 and they get +1 for the large shield.

Knights get +8 because the lance is +4 and melee horse is +4.

[Michael the Great]

Thanks Simon,it's good to know these facts.
Is 3ddwonloads the only place I can download this coz it doesn't work from there...and neither can I upload anythin to totalwar.org http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Kraxis]

Horse archers get +2 charge... but how come Boyars get a Chargebonus of 4??? That would indicate they are melee cav, while on the other hand the meleestrong JI have a charge of only 1... That should be used for archers, and archers they aren't, they are footsoldiers armed with bows too.

[econ21]

Kraxis, yes the Boyars are classed as "cavalry_melee" and the JI "infantry_other". I would not argue with the former assumption, but you may have a point about that latter. I plan to do lots of tweaking to the stats, but the file is useful in encouraging me to make any tweaks systematic.

[andrewt]

3ddownloads work the same as gamespy but don't support download accelerators. On gamespy, when I use download accelerator, it informs me that the thing I'm downloading is an html file and gives me the option of opening the html file on IE then getting the wait list. After it's my turn to download, download accelerator downloads it as normal.

3ddownloads put the wait list thing as zip so I'm not prompted to open the html file on IE. I had to manually turn browser intergration off to view the html wait list file. I tried turning it on again but it wouldn't work. I guess I have to download it with IE which sucks.

[andrewt]

Cool. Now I know why chivalric sergeants have crappier melee and morale than feudal sergeants. They were made missile instead of normal. Otherwise, they'd be more or equally as expensive compared to gothic sergeants and there wouldn't be any sense to upgrade to those guys.

Another alternative would be poor like saracen infantry but that would give them less support costs than feudal sergeants. Missile and poor are exactly the same except for support costs.

[Kraxis]

What an interesting file...

This should make modding much more fun... Now we have a table we can use. No more stats out of the air. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif