View Full Version : Peasants
Sir Chauncy
03-04-2003, 11:33
Well, ladies and gentlemen, I wish to propose that we incorporate some changes into the peasent unit display.
Instead of "steady, uncertain, or wavering", why not change this to "waiting to run and scream like little girls"?
Instead of "Losing or Losing badly" why not "getting ripped a new one" or "getting butchered"?
Why not rename the unit "arrow fodder"?
Seriously though, I have never ever seen a unit of peasants that wasn't losing badly or running away. And yet there are whole armies of them. If I see one, I just rub my hands together and think of the bonuses to valour and command I'm going to get. Any one else think this?
A.Saturnus
03-04-2003, 12:52
Had a battle `gainst the French yesterday. Instead of peasants, they had CMAA. I won, but it was close. It`s all a question of modding.
Quite a funny situation the other day. Out of nowhere I seen these three huge stacks pull up to one of my border provinces. I had only 6 units in the adjacent province, but they were elite. After quick inpsection the enemies three stacks turned out to be composed of nearly all peasants. I laughed, and didn't even bother to reinforce the border. They never once attacked, and rightly so, as those 6 units would haved murdered all of them. Peasants are weak, but not stupid.
I think the only purpose the peasant unit serves is so that sicko's like me can enjoy mass murder genocide.
MonkeyMan
03-04-2003, 17:26
Quote[/b] (Praylak @ Mar. 04 2003,15:08)]Quite a funny situation the other day. Out of nowhere I seen these three huge stacks pull up to one of my border provinces. I had only 6 units in the adjacent province, but they were elite. After quick inpsection the enemies three stacks turned out to be composed of nearly all peasants. I laughed, and didn't even bother to reinforce the border. They never once attacked, and rightly so, as those 6 units would haved murdered all of them. Peasants are weak, but not stupid.
I think the only purpose the peasant unit serves is so that sicko's like me can enjoy mass murder genocide.
lol, can't you remeber the days before the patch, and us complaining about rebellions of fully armed knight armies in provinces containing little more than a hovel and a rabid goat. Guess you can't please everone. As A Saturnus says you can mod it if you want, evidence being millions of italian infantry keep rebelling against me in Scotland.
Peasanat killing was just another sport for medieval kings, brilliant fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Sir Chauncy
03-04-2003, 17:57
absolutely. I really do love killing hunderds of them and frequently 'encourage' this sort of behaviour. I was just trying to be funny really because I have never, not ever seen a unit of peasants do anything other than die. Not even when I have controlled one. I flanked a unit of spears that had been engagued already. The spears killed 30 of them before i could blink and the peasants handn't killed a soul. Most embarasing when you think about it. The spear unit could have taken more damage from wet sheep attacks than from those serfs.
NateEngle
03-04-2003, 18:00
My view is that there's nothing there worth even a millisecond's distraction away from VI. Anyone who's a staunch proletarian could raise and use peasant armies - call it a "challenge" if you like, although I think the term "masochism" would be more appropriate.
Maybe it's petty of me, but I enjoy a good 1-to-4 odds fight against a rabble of peasants every now and then. I go out of my way to recruit top quality troops with as many advantages as I can heap on them, and it's not my fault that there are lower grades of troops in the game. I don't want every fight to be a tense contest against perfect parity, especially since the art of generalship is setting up the fights so that the odds are stacked in my favor.
As Master Sun wrote so long ago, the inertia of a good attack is like splitting open a 10,000 foot dam and letting the water pour out, or rolling boulders down a 10,000 foot mountainside.
Let's just put it this way: some people are javelin throwers and others are javelin catchers... If you get a choice, try to be a thrower.
Jabberwock
03-04-2003, 23:49
Anyone remeber the scene from the very first Blackadder?
If I remember correctly it goes like this...
Prince Edmund is being questioned by another noble as to the number of kills he had made in the battle that day, for calculation of the greatest performance(he had hidden, then accidentally chopped off his dad's head (the king) from behind).
Noble: How many peasants did you get today?
Edmund: Err...
Noble: How many peasants did you kill today?
Edmund: [shocked] None, it wasn't me...
Noble: None?
[Edmund's lackey Sir Percy frantically gesticulates over the nobles shoulder - holding up 4 fingers]
Edmund: Four...
Noble : Four
[Sir Percy points to his hand, then grabs his red tunic and waves it]
Edmund: Hand?...hand..red?..handred....hundred.... Four hundred
[Sir Percy points to hand]
Edmund: Hand...?
[Percy indicates a number]
Edmund: Nine. Four hundred and nine
Noble: Not bad. Of course they only count in the event of a tie... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
LordKhaine
03-05-2003, 01:14
I kinda like the rebel armys filled with peasents. Its just a shame when enemy factions build lots of peasents.
Foreign Devil
03-05-2003, 01:53
If you want a challenge, try fighting off a loyalist revolt or two. Those are always composed of a faction's elite units. Much fun.
Pablo Sanchez
03-05-2003, 04:49
I shall always maintain that peasants are good. Good for drawing valuable arrows and units from my more important targets. If I'm about to go into an attack, or be attacked, I can always take the time to add a peasant unit or two. It's nice having disposable men.
Red Harvest
03-05-2003, 06:28
One thing puzzles me about humans who use peasants...why waste a slot in your army for a unit that will rout and pull down the morale of the rest of the army? Routed units do reduce morale while they are on the field...costing the lives of your better troops.
Watching some of the AI build choices recently, I'm about to make peasants highly unlikely unit selections, or eliminate them from all but "Early." I've been picking off Egypt one province at a time. Egyptians ran out of money then managed to break even again when they ran out of armies to support. So they started building peasants, even though they could build better units. Absolute waste of money.
A.Saturnus
03-05-2003, 15:12
Crossbowmen will hold longer under fire, so if you want to have a unit to suck up arrows use x-bows or something the like. Plus they are cheaper.
...4...
Foreign Devil
03-05-2003, 20:58
Plus, crossbows can shoot back. Are they really cheaper? I'll have to take a look. I guess it makes sense, as the info talks about how anyone could be trained to use a crossbow in a few weeks.
Well, Peasants aren't all bad. Not all the time at least.
I have just beaten down a rebellion in Crete that lasted no less than 80 years. But eventhough I sent my best troops and a good general I only barely won.
My Varangians were deeply depleted (40 survived out of 120), my Byz Cav slaughtered (2 out of 80), my Byz Inf routed (32 out of 100), my upped Pronoiai more or less gone (26 out of 120), my general dead and my Kats dead (of 160 only 22 survived)...
Granted I made a few mistakes, such as believeing my Byz Cav could get out of a corner. But I used good tactics in general, but these rebels simply didn't let go, they almost never routed until I had killed their general. Of 3200 I had to kill no less than 2700. Ok, they were stiffened by Archers and some Militia Sergeants, but still...
These guys were only well led, not even good in Morale or upgraded... That was the last time I thought of rebels as 'cattle to the slaughter'.
Prior I always thought of these battles as great training, now I fear them a little.
I've had some small battles against the AI where they have large cavalry armies. Peasants hiding in trees can hold their own for a little bit. They still lose though.
I'm playing Spanish right now on early, after patch. The Elmos had a bandit rebellion with mangonels and my crusade conquered province in Egypt had one with Khwarazmiam Cavalry. I think a balance between all peasant armies and that is in order. I still think rebellions need a good mix of units that are buildable in that province. A few archers and spearmen if the province has nothing in it is fine. If it's a loyalist rebellion, perhaps units that the faction can build.
A.Saturnus
03-06-2003, 13:33
Kraxis, you played on expect, right? On reason I don`t like to play on expert (besides being beaten) is that it can produce weird results like peasants killing VG`s. When I see such things, it simply doesn`t feel right.
Peasants cost 37 upkeep, x-bows 22. That`s the same multiplier, but since 60 x-bows are more usefull in battle than 100 peasants, I consider them cheaper.
Yeah it is Expert, but I had faced plenty of enemy troops with those Varangians and I had won easily.
My losses of about 450 compared to the 3000 (I captured some too) is a good killrate, but I should never have had to face that many enemies, they should have run, even with the +4 to Morale.
They could at least improve peasants a bit. In STW, they weren't completely useless. In fact, you could download the spreadsheet CA used to compute costs. If they didn't add any modifiers because peasants were too cheap, they would only cost 25 (22 before rounding off).
RE: Shogun's peasants.
This is more a question than a statement. Could it be the japanese peasants had better morale than their European counterparts? A possible rationality, or CA just thought differently of them when they made M:TW. In either game, I don't use peasants, but I'm most happy that the Ai makes them in quanity. No it's not as "challenging" as facing your standard quality units, but it sure is fun watching my knights slam through the rear of those poor farmers.
Is it just me, they seem more terrified than other units when running away. Lots of screaming, and such. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Pablo Sanchez
03-11-2003, 02:54
Quote[/b] (Praylak @ Mar. 10 2003,18:44)]This is more a question than a statement. Could it be the japanese peasants had better morale than their European counterparts? A possible rationality, or CA just thought differently of them when they made M:TW.
I think the difference between STW and MTW peasants comes from military context, not just the caprice of game designers. Considering the equipment of the Ashigaru, I'd say they were closer to spearmen or urban militia than just peasants.
It should be remembered that all of the units in Shogun which are better than the Ashigaru are men-at-arms at minimum, and possibly knights.
Sir Kuma of The Org
03-12-2003, 05:16
Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ Mar. 05 2003,08:12)]Crossbowmen will hold longer under fire, so if you want to have a unit to suck up arrows use x-bows or something the like. Plus they are cheaper.
...4...
I find that the best troops to hold out against missile fire are the ones with the big shields, the pavise type or the murabitin type. I use the pavise units in castle assaults (big castles with a lot of defences and few units inside).
As for peasants, they can have some use in the beginning of the game, but after a few years i phase them out, unless one of the units has a five acumen leader http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
Kuma? Are you the guy we had here as the administrator??? If you are, welcome back.
Sir Kuma of The Org
03-13-2003, 05:10
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Mar. 12 2003,12:00)]Kuma? Are you the guy we had here as the administrator??? If you are, welcome back.
The one and only http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif (in fact, it can be argued that one is more than enough, or even too much, it'a a point of vue, perspective thing)
Thanks Kraxis
I will be popping in more often for the next couple of months.
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