Deficit Spending

[Windwood]

I searched around the Guild but I couldn't find this information. The thread on Saving Money ties in somewhat, but my question is a little more specific, so I hope it is alright here.

I am only two provinces and two islands away from total European conquest (and there was much rejoicing). But I've run into a spiraling deficit that I just can't seem to fix.

Throughout the campaign, I have had money problems. The AI would never let me go into deficit spending before. It would always inform me that I had insufficient funds. In a year or two I always managed to turn it around.

Then, as I started moving into the end game, it suddenly (surprisingly) allowed me to start running up a deficit. It increased rapidly each year, so I stopped all construction projects. That gradually decreased the deficit until I got it down to about -4,000 florins. Then the next year it shot up to -22,000 florins and it hasn't stopped increasing. It's now approaching -100,000 with just a little conquest left to go. I fear what the AI might do to me if it continues.

The AI has informed me that I have the wealthiest faction and that my current problems must be a cash flow issue. My challenge is that I have completely stopped building and I've disbanded all the smallest units rather than retrain them. Yet the deficit just keeps growing. I am hesitant to disband any more units to decrease maintenance costs because I seem to need all of them so I can shift them around to keep rebellions in check.

What can happen if the deficit keeps growing? Is there any way to stop it? Is there even any point in trying to stop it at this stage in the game?

[Kensai Achilles]

Tell us a bit more about your king and governors accumen and v&v in average. Towards the end of the game we should have a lot of chances to get at least 4 accumen governors.

Was there a throne succession and you suddenly get a low cash flow? Does your king have good accumen and v&v? i.e. great builder or trader. Note that after succession, your profit may drop significantly until the new king develops good v&V.

We might be able to help you after you provide us a bit more info.

Cheers.

[Dîn-Heru]

If there are only four provinces left, then go for a quick kill.
But if you want to tey and turn things around, then check all govenors' v/v. When you are the biggest they seem to develop all sorts of vices that decrease income. Replace them and you should a least slow your yearly deficit.

NB you should repeat this every couple of years, because the new governors seem to aquire the bad income vices as soon as they get their titles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Hope this helps.

[Windwood]

I endeavored throughout the campaign to secure governors with at least a 4 acumen. I would say their average acumen is about a 5. However, they have tended to get shifted around a bit. Thus, I have a number of governors with high acumen who are no longer in their provinces. They're off campaigning or suppressing revolts. Does the AI take into consideration whether a governor is present in their province or not?

My two greatest generals (8 star and 9 star) each have incredible acumen (something like 7 or 8) but I cannot keep them near their provinces. I have a continent to conquer afterall.

I built up my fleet quite dramatically over the past 30 years to prepare for the conquest of island provinces and the help move my forces around more easily. I have noticed that a number of my ships and their respective trade routes are losing money.

I did have a recent succession to the throne. Perhaps that played into it. I hadn't really considered that. I cannot remember his acumen or his vices. I'll have to check into those.

I'll probably get this one wrapped up before the deficit makes too great of a difference, but it sounds like in the future I should pay more attention to my governors and not just appoint them and forget about them.

It just came on so quickly, it quite confounded me.

[Lord Of Storms]

I think it is obvious that your trade routes will make less money as you conquer more provinces as you are removing those you had established the trade with. With only 4 provs left to conquer trade is pretty much gone. If you had all your farmlands improved to the max that should generate good income. If you do not have them up to the max 80% you should make some sacrifices some where and build them up , On the flip side with only 4 provs. left why drag it out go for the quick kill try and end it and see what happens... Good Luck

[Gaius Julius]

You didn't mention "trade routes".
Do you have significant income from trade?
Obviously, if you control most of Europe, you won't get any trade income here.
Also, do you have alot of "mercenary" units.
If you do, disband what you think you don't need.
Mercs. have very high support costs.

[Al Qasim Hussein]

There was an extensive post a few months back (maybe november? very old anyway...) about diminishing returns. Someone actually calculated at what point you would stop receiving money, at what point deficit spending was the only option, etc.

The long and the short of it was that once deficit spending is the only option, there is no recourse but to lunge at the remaining provinces and win the game. There was no mathematical way it could get better. Any way we could dig up such an ancient post?

[ichi]

Windwood:

"Thus, I have a number of governors with high acumen who are no longer in their provinces. They're off campaigning or suppressing revolts. Does the AI take into consideration whether a governor is present in their province or not?"

Look at their virtues and vices (like Sybarite, Secret Kleptocracy), 'cause even with good acumen their vices can reduce happiness and income.

What are your taxes set at? Have you built all the Merchants and mines available?

"I built up my fleet quite dramatically over the past 30 years to prepare for the conquest of island provinces and the help move my forces around more easily. I have noticed that a number of my ships and their respective trade routes are losing money."

You trade with other empires, and if there are only four provinces left then the law of diminishing returns applies.

"I did have a recent succession to the throne. Perhaps that played into it. I hadn't really considered that. I cannot remember his acumen or his vices. I'll have to check into those."

The King's qualities affect the entire empire, while the qualities of your Guvs affects their province. Kill (assassinate or disband or remove) anyone not high in acumen and replace them.

Finally, add spies and Guvs with high dread to unhappy provinces. If necessary, lower their taxes in order to reduce unhappiness, thereby reducing the troops needed to suppress revolts.

Lower the support costs by reducing army (and navy) size (dump the mercs), sell workshops and guilds (other stuff too) in places you don't need anymore, fix your Guvs, and go k\finish em off.

ichi

[el_slapper]

Planting spies to replace local garrisons is really the way to go. At this point of the campaign, outside the front line, each province only has its gov & a bunch of spies. No maintenance at all for spies. Thus the income of the province is only reduced by 1 maintenance.

But this can't be done in a few turns. I'm aiming towards this very early in the campaign - as soon as I can build spies. I don't waste them in offensive actions(other than opening gates, when it works).

[Kensai Achilles]

(ichi,Mar. 17 2003,20:16)

Yes, the provinces do better when the Guv is at home.

I'm still not sure about this since I always group my governors as rear garrisons in several provinces. This makes micromanagement much simpler each turn. In doing so, I played the campaigns very aggressively and rarely have rebellions (unless I want to make florins out of it, or need to find something exciting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ). Income is always good. Towards the end my profit would be somewhere at least 30k - 40k a year. I think i've seen 50k with a well seasoned aging king.

I'm hoping ECS, Longjohn2, or Giljaysmith would read this and advise us. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I always have a group of emissaries ready to strip bad governors out of their titles. I don't mind 10-15% corruption/waste though. Some good gov's v&v might nullified this waste.

The others have given good opinion above. I'm adding another thing. Towards the end I would suggest replacing an aging king with younger heir (like a 20-30yr old one). i.e. By suicide mission. This way, the new heir would have a better chance in gainning v&v (vices&virtues). By doing this, later on we won't need to worry about 30 % or more income lost from a throne succession by having the death of and aging King

Near the end there won't be much we can build so unless we prepare early, the kingdom will suffer from new heir's incompetent v&v.

Cheers, good luck

[eat cold steel]

It doesn't matter where you governor is at home or not, only his stats matters, as it was deemed to be much of a hassle to keep track of your generals. High acumen is important, but don't forget about dread to keep your people in line. High piety will also help in zealous region. Sometimes you'll find that by having a happier population you can actually get more income as you can tax them a bit more.

Happiness is related to the size of your kingdom - there is no threshold as such, but more of a gradual change as you progress. On top of that, the effect of distance to your king will mean that large kingdoms will have low happiness, if you have the AI autotax on - you'll receive much less income as the tax is lowered automatically.

In the patched game there is a command switch to tell the autotax AI what you want your default to be, it is set to 120 normally, the command is -loyalty:120 add that to your medieval shortcut.

[Red Harvest]

Hard to fix when you are already in deficit... go for the kill. When you are deficit you can't build so it is hard to fix the problem. You can't extend trade since you are most likely at war with the last remaining provinces (and there aren't enough of them anyway.) You can't reduce unit upkeep if you are barely stopping rebellions from happening. Might make sense to get rid of small high quality, high upkeep units just to balance funds...but I never let myself get to that point. I'll use them in battle if I need to reduce expenses...if they die they are no longer on the payroll.

I run max tax rates in all provinces and I garrison as needed (garrisons shrink the longer I hold the territory.) I use 4 acumen governors but try to keep dread at 1 or 2. Higher dread seems to cause a loss of income (not sure about the breakpoint.) Use border forts, religious buildings and the like to boost happiness/loyalty. I build these first in any province I capture. I then do various ag/mine upgrades then go for military structures (except for early in the game when priorities can become a bit skewed.)

I rarely use mercs, upkeep is incredibly high for them.

[Foreign Devil]

I've seen someone suggest using agents to keep most of your provences nice and loyal. This would free up large amounts of cash, as agents have no upkeep.

I've never tried this myself, and it is a little cheesy, I guess, but it might be worth a shot.

And please, tell us how it works out for you in the end. Kudos for getting this far, I can't go much past 100-150 years without getting bored and starting a new campagin.

[LeeJackson]

I have a question about trade routes. I notice that many of you were saying that you can’t trade with your self. I just completed my first 100% victory game and the whole time my trade income was quite decent. I controlled every sea-lane and every port and it looked like my provinces were still making trade income.

Am I misunderstanding you guys, or am I misinterpreting my game info?

[mav3434]

Quote[/b] (LeeJackson @ Mar. 19 2003,01:48)]I have a question about trade routes. I notice that many of you were saying that you can’t trade with your self. I just completed my first 100% victory game and the whole time my trade income was quite decent. I controlled every sea-lane and every port and it looked like my provinces were still making trade income.

Am I misunderstanding you guys, or am I misinterpreting my game info?
[QUOTE]

you were probably making it from internal trade, not external.