Do high taxes lead to mass revolts?

[econ21]

I read a lot of stuff about tax rates when MTW first came out and just wonder whether they have stood the test of time. Some posters said very definitively:

(a) Setting high tax rates, including via autotax, would ultimately induce mass revolts even if you keep province loyalties high. It was suggested there was something going on here above and beyind the process determining the actual loyalty of any one province.

(b) You should aim for 200% loyalty continuously for a decade or more. Again, the implication being to avoid mass revolt.

This stuff was said so definitively, I figured it was based on insider information about the game mechanics.

I have followed (a), foregoing an awful lot of extra tax revenue by sticking to normal taxes. Is it true?

I do not follow (b) - will loyalties below 200% eventually lead to a mass revolt even with normal taxes?

I know all about isolation of the leader leading to mass revolts and other kinds of rebellions (eg religious); I am just interested in the specifics about tax-related rebellions.

[Demon of Light]

I might point out that there are different means by which to keep your loyalty at 200% and that those differing methods seem to have an effect on the propensity of provinces to revolt. To maintain loyalty one can use spies, garrisons,governors with high dread/piety (with zealous provinces) etc. or any combination of the preceding. I suggest that anyone attempting to tackle Dr. Appleton's point B also state the method by which they ensure 200% loyalty for a decade so as to round out the discussion.

[NewJeffCT]

I have had peasant mass revolts in several provinces with very low taxes and a decent sized garrison (at least 200 men)even though they are mostly the same religion as me. I generally try to put a minimum of a 4 acumen governor in place, too.

[TheViking]

I always have taxes on very high, when i can, and i only have one unit as garrison in those territorys that isnt in the front, and I play on hard.

The only times i get revolts is when a island get cut of from mainland, so my king cant get there in one turn.

[Foreign Devil]

You are almost certain to get mass revolts at some point. I'd reccomend keeping tax levels as high as loyalty will permit. It makes a big difference in income, especially in the richer provences.

Just make sure to check your overall loyalty with the shift button often.

[LeeJackson]

Personally I have only played on normal so all my advice needs to be predicated by that fact.

I never raise my tax rates. I don’t often feel the need too. Keeping your population at 200% will insure no revolts and even more importantly (IMO) keep factions reappearing (since they usually reaper with good armies). Besides spies and garrison a great way to improve loyalty is to build in a province, especially watch towers, town guard buildings, and churches. Forts, keeps and improved farm land also help. Building also has the benefit of helping your ruler achieve the great builder and magnificent builder with gives a plus to population happiness.

Another great thing about having loyalty so high is that if something happens, like your king getting cut off from a province, you sometimes have a turn or two too turn things around before facing mass rebellion.

[pdoan8]

IMO,

a) Keeping tax rate at high or very high won't make the peasents rebel as long as the loyalty level is high. However, it seems that the discontent level is building up in the background. If there would be a rebel, it usually larger than provinces with lower tax rate. Also, province that are taxed at high rate continuously seem to rebel easier if there is a significant drop in loyalty (from 200% to 120% or lower).

b) To avoid the above, keep the loyalty level high enough. As long as loyalty level is high, rebel is less likely to happen.

[starkhorn]

I've always found that the most common reason for mass revolts is due to the location of my king. For example, my King is in Venice with the OutRemer lands (Palestine, Tripoli etc) connected via my navy. Loyalty is 200% for years. The navy route is broken and when I check the loyalty of these provinces they've dropped to under 100%.

So it's been my experience that having very high taxes on your provinces is okay as long as your king remains in contact with them and that you've got a decent garrison. Once your king losses touch with different parts of the empire then all hell can break lose.

[Kensai Achilles]

Simon I wonder if you r referring to old posts about tax and mass rebellions (MR). Back then before the patch arrived rebelions were quite treacherous and players weren't quite so sure as to what cause the MR.

The goal should be to increase happiness of each province so we can increase tax manually, hence higher income. Default autotax should bring the tax rather low unless we tamper it. Higher tax (whenever possible) should bring more happiness in the long run because we will get more income and thus be able to build infrastructures that affects population happiness (mosque, church etc).

Refer to ECS recent post. His first pargraph suggest that we can tax more.
Eat Cold Steel post (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=8199)

I don't always have 200% population loyalty in each province and I always tax them all at the maximum if possible (no lower than 100% loyalty). I don't have a MR prob even when I'm expanding almost every turn during war time. I do pay attention to each Governor and The King's stats every turn though.

[econ21]

OK, thanks for the replies - it seems the majority view is that high taxes are not in themselves a problem. This is important because as people have said the difference in income between normal and very high taxes is substantial, especially before you have a chance to build up trade income.

[Satyr]

CA has stated on several occasions that loyalty of 120% or above WILL keep rebellions/reappearances from happening. If you can set your taxes on very high and your loyalty is still above 120% then you are fine.

I always turn on autotaxing. Make sure you have the patch applied because autotaxes used to work off 100% which is not enough.

Where most people get in trouble is when a king dies or your shipping lines get broken as these can lead to terrible problems in far away provinces. If this happens, save the best provinces by concentrating your forces there and let the lousy ones go and reclaim them later.

[Aelwyn]

Garrison size does matter to a point, but I've had instances where I have a garrison of 500 men and the province still isn't loyal to me. Then if I give the title of office to a general with high dread I can take away some of the garrison if I want to and the problem will be gone. Its nice if your people like you, but if they're scared of you it pretty much has the same effect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Satyr]

Yes, you need to keep whatever garrison is required to have loyalty above 120%. If that means you need 1500 men in Portugal, then that is what it takes. The longer you have provinces, the less men you need in a garrison. BUT, you better have some spares around for when your king dies because loyalty will fall.