View Full Version : Crossbows in 793 but not 1096?
I see there is a crossbow unit in Viking Invasion, but you are denied crossbows in early era MTW. This doesn't make much sense to me. It would be historically correct and would add to the gameplay to have crossbows in early era, and yet they are not there.
Yes that is interesting... That leaves us with 10 years of crossbows in the very early game... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
But really I wonder at this too... is it because of the Pope perhaps?
Brother Derfel
03-20-2003, 21:57
See my post in the other topic on pictish Crossbows.
These were nothing like the later powerful Medieval versions, and were realy nothing more than bows held with a handel realy.
Ok. Thx Brother Derfel. Let's hope these Pict crossbows are given the SBOW projectile stat, and not the XBOW stat.
Crossbows in 8th century Europe?
There is a romantic legend about crossbows in Vietnam's history. The time was 2nd century BC.
The First Emperor of China unified China around 211 BC. He sent roughly 500,000 men to the land of the Yueh (Viet). The Yueh were not unified and still were in Bronze Age, while the Chinese already perfected warfare and have good iron weapons (This is the end of the 800 years of unification warfare called the Spring and Autumn Era and Warring States Era). The results of that conquest was that roughly 3/4 of Yueh territory was now part of imperial China. The 1/4 not yet conquered was in the place where currently is North Vietnam.
But the First Emperor reign and his successor's reign was not long. After the first Emperor's death, the empire was under numerous rebellions. One of the generals sent South to conquer the Yueh was Ch'iu To (Trieu Da) who claimed the territory of Nan Yueh (Southern Viet, currently Canton province) as his own kingdom. The Yueh in North Vietnam is called the Lac Viet was led by a King named Thuc Phan (Full Title: An Duong Vuong, or Ocean Calming King).
Ch'iu To sent troops to Lac Viet, trying to conquer it. But Thuc Phan had two advantages that the Chinese general can't overcome:
1. The Capital City of the Lac Viet was Co Loa, with multiple curtain walls in the form of a spiral (heh... you now know how which way the spiral turns...);
2. The Yueh (or Viet) had a multiple firing crossbow capable of firing several arrows before having to reload. Legend said that a Golden Turtle gave Thuc Phan the design of the crossbow in a dream. The design allowed to overcome the slow speed of firing and reloading the crossbow. (*1)
So Ch'iu To withdrew his army and asked for truce, then alliance. He also asked for marriage of his son to the princess of the Viet. According to Viet custom, which until then was matriarchal in nature, the groom goes to the bride's family. This also served as a hostage: if Ch'iu To was hostile to Lac Viet, the Viet would execute the prince.
But the prince was spying on the Viet, noting the design of the citadel and how to defeat it. Also, he enquired about the design of the crossbow and asked the princess to show him the crossbow. After several years, he asked to go home to see his dying father.
Of course, it was a trick to get the prince back. The prince reported to his father what he knew. They together led an army back to conquer Lac Viet. Thuc Phan was chased out of his citadel, ran South to a mountain pass adjaccent to the Eastern Sea. His daughter was also on the run with him. But when he saw his daughter left goose down feathers from pillows as a trail, as she hoped to see her husband again, Thuc Phan slain her and jumped off the cliff to his own death. The legend said the Golden Turtle rose from the sea and pointed the feather trails to Thuc Phan and said "the one who betrayed you did that".
Why Annie typed this long story:
1. Because behind a big disaster, there is perhaps a woman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
2. Crossbow was used quite early in the East, both supported by legends and archeological finding.
3. Hope you enjoy a bit of history...
Annie
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(*1) Some authors dispute that theory, thinking that the design was perhaps to improve the range of the crossbow, or else, the multiple-firing capability, if it is indeed an advantage, will quickly be replicated and survive to later age. The fact that it is lost now make the original legend less believable.
Kongamato
03-21-2003, 02:59
Sun Tzu mentioned crossbows in the Art of War. The repeating fire crossbow you speak of appears in AOK as the Chu Ko Nu. I do not know whether it truly existed.
LeeJackson
03-21-2003, 03:16
Really it’s quite easy to explain. I just recently invented a time machine and have been traveling back in time selling weapons before they had been originally invented. I am making a killing on the antiquities market. Don’t worry the time stream will slowly catch up and you will remember none of this… http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Seriously, good question, which it looks like Brother Derfel has provided at least a partial answer too.
Hakonarson
03-21-2003, 04:19
The magazine loaded crossbow certainly existed in China - it wasn't a heavy/powerful bow because it only used a lever mechanism to reload check out this (picture) (http://www.arco-iris.com/George/xbow.htm), or this (more detailed text description) (http://www.atarn.org/chinese/rept_xbow.htm)
As I am uploading the pictures to my page, Hokonarson already posted the link to the "Chu-Ko-Nu".
Refer to the Post by LadyAnn and just to add a little detail to the story. The Golden Turtle gave Thuc Phan (An Duong Vuong) a golden claw (turtle claw) which was used as a key part in the design of the crossbow. I think it was the trigger/loader part (as seen in the Chu-Ko-Nu picture) and this new or improved design gave crossbow better rate of fire. Then, if you look at the Chu-Ko-Nu ("Nu" means crossbow) in the second link by Hokonarson, you can see that the design indeed give the crossbow much faster reload rate and much easier to reload than the European single bolt loading type in 12th to 17th century (as in MTW).
In another source that I read, the crossbow was invented (other sources says redesigned) in China between the Spring Autumn and the Warring State era (500 BC) or even earlier. In arround 3rd BC, the Chinese crossbow already used bronze lock and trigger mechanism.
The ballista or a similar weapon was used by the Greeks in 4th BC. Arround 2nd BC, the Carthagenians used the scorpion (hand held crossbow). Then the crossbow reappear in Europe arround 10th century. Crossbow begin to be used widely in the 12th. It evolved into a very powerful weapon (later called as arbalest?) that the Pope banned the use of it (on or against fellow Christian) a few times.
LeeJackson
03-21-2003, 08:55
My question is how powerful where these types of crossbows?
Could they pierce armour? Where they used mainly for harassment? If they were effective why would one chose regular bows over them?
Thanks in advance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
There is one thing, I don´t understand about the story(perhaps my English is too bad http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ) If Thuc Phan jumped off the cliffs and died, how could the turtle give him the loader part and talk to him. If she gave it to him before he jumped, how could the chinese get the part, because it should have got lost in the sea?
Apart from that, thanks for the very nice story Ann. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
And i also wondered about the pictish crossbow, but the explanation of the pope having forbidden to use it, seems to be satisfying(for me, and I am not an expert). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
DemonArchangel
03-22-2003, 05:16
Chinese repeating crossbows are dead effective, especially in my homemade mongol mod, but of course Chu Ko Nus in my mongol mod don't pierce armor.
Divine Wind
03-23-2003, 14:23
Nice story LadyAnn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Orda Khan
03-23-2003, 16:01
I'm not surprised really I've been told so many times this is just a game and not historically accurate. I still think a bit of accuracy would be appreciated if only by those who like to recreate famous battles
......Orda
Foreign Devil
03-26-2003, 05:27
Quote[/b] (Stormer @ Mar. 21 2003,02:07)]i hate crossbows.
Really?
Quote[/b] (Orda Khan @ Mar. 23 2003,09:01)]I'm not surprised really I've been told so many times this is just a game and not historically accurate. I still think a bit of accuracy would be appreciated if only by those who like to recreate famous battles
......Orda
This game isn't historically accurate at all. It's a game of medieval tactical battles, it has a simplified strategic and economic management. That is MTW, no more, no less.
You cannot simulate historical battles with MTW. As nice as the tactical game engine is, it's still far to simplistic for an accurate simulation of a real battle.
Kongamato
03-26-2003, 21:54
Hey, look what I found A Pictish Crossbowmen unit picture and description at the .com. Strange though, to not wear a shirt when doing battle with arrows and in the presence of highly tensed wood that could launch splinters.
http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/pictish.jpg
Pictish Crossbowmen
Although many outsiders dismiss them as a backward people, the Picts have not been slow to realize the advantages of the crossbow. Its reach, punch and ease of use have seen it used to great effect against the forces of more "advanced" nations.
Edit: I forgot to add a period + Gah You've already seen this
Big King Sanctaphrax
03-30-2003, 19:45
Quote[/b] ]the advantages of the crossbow. Its reach, punch and ease of use have seen it used to great effect against the forces of more "advanced" nations
That description makes it sound like a proper crossbow, rather than a short bow with a handle.
Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Mar. 21 2003,07:57)]1. Because behind a big disaster, there is perhaps a woman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Annie
Nice story Ann. In Chinese history, there is always disaster when women is involve...especially in politics. Here are some examples:
1) The fall of Shang dynasty. The emperor indulge too much wif his concubine Da Ji and neglect his duties as an emperor and the empire corrupts and crumples.
2) Three Kingdom; the fall of Lu Bu:- He fail to take the advantage of initiative to attack Cao Cao when advise to do so by his advisor Chen Gong. Reasons is that his wife Diao Chan fear for his safety and told him not to go
3) The civil war in Tang Dynasty ( An Lu Shan revolt ):- One of the emperor's concubine's favourite's General ( her lover? ) plots wif her to overthrow the dynasty but the plot fails
4) Qing dynasty :- The Dowyager Ci Xi's " Policy making behind the curtain " implementing the shut off of China to outside world. Usage of the imperial fund to build the exotic " Garden of Light " which is mend to create a modern Navy. Allowing the free trade of Opium calling it " the paste of happiness and longitivity ". Causing humiliating defeat by the coalition of the 8 "Western" countries and inflicting internal turmoil/chaos.
Truely, I can't agreed more with you.
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