View Full Version : Which major faction has the worst units?
[This is an obvious topic for a poll but I did a search and could not find it.]
I wonder which faction people think has the least attractive line up of units for the human player in the SP game? I'm excluding Danes, Poles and Russians as I think they may each be a little weak and am more interested in the "bigger" factions (no offense).
I am asking as I am not quite sure of the answer myself. I like the English for the longbow and billmen; the Italians and Germans for the Gothic units; the Spanish for the lancer; the Byzantines for the kats, VG, byz infantry, Treb archers etc. The French are boring but at least get all the chivalric units at a discount. The Turks get JHI. The Almohads get AUM. So I guess I am voting for Egyptians. What do other people think?
Generally, I feel the Islamic factions have weaker units than the Catholics or is that untrue?
Longshanks
02-25-2003, 18:47
It depends on what period you are talking about too. Some factions are relatively weak in the early period unit wise, but strong in late.(Turks for example)
For some other nations the opposite is true.
Michael the Great
02-25-2003, 20:23
Egyptians have Abyssinian Guards, wich are pretty cool.
The Byz have a good strong assortment of unique units under their control. and if u can survive as the Turks untill the Late era, then you will find some of the Best units in the game under their banners.
The Italians on the other hand have a few unique. the Italian light infantry. these guys cost alote but i have found them to my liking. they also some of the Gothic units when the later years role around.
The English have the Longbows. wich in my experiance can be battle winers. they also have Billman. they are more like a Halbrieder (i think) and are pretty good when u first get them.
The Almos have the Almohad Urban Militia, wich are some of the Best units avaliable to any Islamic Faction before the Late Era.
The Egyptians have the Abyssinian guards. these guys can be used to break through formations of spearman, or to flank a force already wavering.
The Spanish have the lancers, wich are a very good calvery force. they also have the kights of Santiego in Crusades these guys are alote like Knights Templar, only alittle weaker ( not sure about that, feal free to correct me )
the HRE has the Gothic units in late just like the italians wich are a very nice touch to any army.
And the French have the Chivalric knights at a discount as u said. wich if used correctly can be the Finest in all of Europe.
i dont think any faction's uniqe units are weak in any way, if they are used correctly, they are all great.
The French, I think, because they have ZERO unique units. Probably the major reason I don't play them very often --- too vanilla.
Muslim units are definitely "lighter" than Catholics and have a tough time going head-to-head when you get into the High and Late periods. However, they are generally cheaper and faster --- flanking is much easier with large numbers of Muslim cav than with a few European knight units that an overstretched stretched economy can't really afford.
I like playing with mobile, fluid tactics so I actually prefer Muslim factions (except for Almohads ... who just get screwed!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, Turks especially.
The Last Emperor
02-26-2003, 01:02
Would have chosen the danes or russians for their puny variaty of units but come to think of it, the french got no special unit of their own Quite shocking for a major power in medival time dont u guys think http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Portuguese Rebel
02-26-2003, 03:33
Im playing almohads right now and its going fine (AUM is good) but im beguining to dread the late battles, they just dont carry enough weigth by then.
Quote[/b] (The Last Emperor @ Feb. 25 2003,18:02)]Would have chosen the danes or russians for their puny variaty of units but come to think of it, the french got no special unit of their own Quite shocking for a major power in medival time dont u guys think http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
while the Russians only have a few unique units...The boyars are just to damn good. and while they are getting another cav unit, along with armored spearmen with the release of VI, they will be fine.
the Danes on the other hand have the Vikings. although they are outclassed before long by man at arms, they are a great advantage to have early on since they only require a Fort to build.great shock troops for early expansion.
neither of these factions suck IMO. atcually Everyfaction has some advantage whether it be units,easily built Economy, or positions on the map, no faction sucks.
The Last Emperor
02-26-2003, 06:42
Monk...i think i may have not put my pt across clearly, i just meant to say that the danes and russian have less unique units compared to t rest and in no way they suck just because of this as u pointed out their advantages accordingly. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Cant wait to see those different vikings units in VI....
Brutal DLX
02-26-2003, 10:24
I don't know if one can say that a faction has "the worst" units, since all of them share at least the basic units. so, the poll question, as I understood it, was "Which major faction has the smallest choice of units?" And I voted for Almohads. The AUM is very nice indeed, the Camels too, but only in the desert, the Egyptians and Turks have more units that will perform even in temperate climates, playing as Almohad, you just have to rely heavily on AUM and missile troops, while the other Islamic powers still have a little more room for variety in their army compositions.
The Catholic factions all have a nice assortment of units, and the French also get Gendarmes, in case you forgot, together with all the usual units, so you cannot really say that any major Catholic faction is lacking.
If you put the Russians on the list, I would have voted for them, since they lack sword units, which also limits their choices but by no means makes them a weak faction.
I am somehow always surprised to read that the French do not have good units since besides all the ones that are available to any catholic faction, they can produce holibars . This is of course not a unique unit since the English also have them but they make a huge diffence since they can be produced very early whereas other faction have to wait quite longer to get mounted crossbowmen (Polish, German) or mounted seargents (all the others).
The Catholic faction with the worst choice of units is Poland as far as I am concerned. Polish Retainers available in Poland only are really not a big advantage (moreover you usually do not have the necessary money to build them in large numbers)
Ya, I think the question should be rephrased. I voted French not because they have the worst units, but rather the lack of unique units. Russians I think by far have it worse. Boyars are great, but what else can one say?
I have no interest in playing the French for this reason, amoung others too. Surely they should at least get gothics. Unlike S:TW, this game really adds a flavour with it's multitude of unique units. It really gives a sense of distinction when playing any faction fortunate to have them.
A.Saturnus
02-26-2003, 18:14
I wonder that many find Egyptian units weak. I think they have a good variety of units that are very effective. The only thing they really miss are heavy inf and they can compensate this by higher numbers. Different from Almos, they have good anti-cav units as well as medium and heavy cav and their horse archers and light cav is superior to the Turkish and they have with Nubians the perfect garrison troop. They have a good mix of units and all advantages of Muslim armies.
I went with Almos.... im sorry, they just plain suck late game. But if the Russians were there, i would have picked them.
Boyar's are nice but thats all they get. No heavy Cav, No good spear units and No sword units.
my 2 Favorite factions are The Turks and The English I wish i could combined them into 1 faction http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Longbowman and JHI's in the same army...... cant beat that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Big King Sanctaphrax
02-26-2003, 22:18
I agree with the comments made about the French needing unique units, and voted for them for this reason. However I believe this is being rectified in VI, with the French getting at least one unigue unit. Russians are also being tooled up with Druzhina Cav. and armoured spearmen.
If you want the French to have Gothics, Praylak, it is possible to mod this. Simply go into the crusaders_unit_prod and add French into the inverted commas denoting which faction the unit is available to, along with German_HRE and Italians.
The French...
They have the semi-unique Gendarmes and Hobilars, neither of which are really that interesting. Gendarmes seems like a conflict in itself, a weak superheavy cav... doesn't make sense.
Hobilars are good because they are easy to get, but that is it... they are outdated faster than the vikings (which can linger on due to the AP and cost).
Red Harvest
02-27-2003, 00:43
Can't imagine how anyone can rate the Almo's poorest when they have the Almohad Urban Militia supermen from the start. Sure they will have trouble in "late", but who is going to be silly enough to let the game reach "late" anyway when you have these guys? You also get some camels and camels are the mulsim remedy for cavalry. They are cheap and effective.
Now if you start in "late", that's another matter...
"Would have chosen the danes or russians for their puny variaty of units but come to think of it, the french got no special unit of their own Quite shocking for a major power in medival time dont u guys think "
If you want more French unique units download Lord Krazy's modpack units You'll get plenty of variety there, including some French unique units (althought the Byzantines get the best new units from LK).
Good suggestions about the French here. I may consider doing some modding or grab that download. It's the patriot in me, you see. I dig the whole Vive ala France, English bastards must die, go get'em Joan of Arc, vendetta thing. Mel Gibson knows what I'm saying here. I actually do like Hobilars, but it's just not enough for me.
Almohads:
Besides the AUM's, I found the Berber camels to be the best Spanish Jinette killers. Made them in Morroco (?), for the +1 valour, and I had the perfect counter for those troublesome jav juggers. Dismount them for desert archers was a cool bonus too. They earned a permanent spot in my Almohad armies mainly for this reason, but as a Muslim nation without horse archer, they sufficed. I thought that was pretty strange. I only played them once, but I never had the option to build horse archers. WTF?
As for the Egyptians, I dig thier cavalry and think as a whole the faction rocks really.
Pablo Sanchez
03-01-2003, 19:05
I couldn't decide, so I randomly clicked and found the Byzantines. My problem is that none of the factions really have terrible units, and those that do usually have something that balances it out.
The French can't be said to have bad units, as they have access to all the Catholic units, which, simply put, kick ass. The English get the Longbowmen and Billmen, and can rapidly lay hands on the Scottish and Irish unit choices. The Muslim factions have poor general units, but their unique units often kick massive amounts of ass. The HRE and Italians have the Catholic standard bits AND solid unique units. The Byzantines get a large number of excellent unique units.
So, I voted at random.
Longshanks
03-02-2003, 17:10
Who voted for the English? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
They are easily one of the stronger factions in the game with Billmen and Longbowmen, not to mention easy access to highlanders and gallowglasses.
almohads have too low morale :S
ShadesWolf
03-02-2003, 21:06
The French factions offer nothing and is boring to play.
I also find Russia and Poland offer very little interest for me.
Leet Eriksson
03-03-2003, 09:45
Also the english get kerns,a murabitin rip-off,but hey since i mostly play muslims,i found kerns to be pretty useful.especially when applying muslim tactics to them.
I can't believe so many have voted for the Egyptians...
Come on, they have those cool Nizaris and the capable Mamluke units (disregarding the mamluke handgunners), and Beduins are great in their own right. They are among the most versatile factions and a delight to play. No, the Almohads are less fortunate.
Leet Eriksson
03-03-2003, 20:17
yeah egyptians are kickass,i can use their crappy and cheap units to defeat a fully develop,late era 16 unit army(needs a lot of micromanagment,especially those ghazis http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif ).
Beelzebub
03-05-2003, 17:48
I voted french, they are just boring with no uniques or even semi uniques (like a province that produces a unique that's deep in their territory). The almohids are pretty crappy also, they get almohid urban militia which are badass, but after that they are pretty weak in choices.
kind of depends on which era i think.... elmos pretty lame in late and high and turks very cool late game
.. defo think the french faction are the most boring though- nothing special in terms of units...
HJM168359
03-05-2003, 19:07
what is lord krazy's web sight and do the units look normal and cheap.
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Mar. 03 2003,12:44)]I can't believe so many have voted for the Egyptians...
Come on, they have those cool Nizaris and the capable Mamluke units (disregarding the mamluke handgunners), and Beduins are great in their own right. They are among the most versatile factions and a delight to play. No, the Almohads are less fortunate.
Once you leave the desert behind (and you are forced to do so if you want to win) the Egyptians cannot really compete on an equal basis with the European factions especially in High era games.
It's not impossible to win by a long shot, but you are at a disadvantage with regard to units imo.
Leet Eriksson
03-05-2003, 20:06
keep in mind the muslims are still good in europe,but there desert based units(ie camels)do not do a good job.Nizaris do not benefit from the desert so they are still effective,so are most Egyptian units.
chilliwilli
03-05-2003, 21:49
Quote[/b] (Daevyll @ Mar. 05 2003,12:22)]Once you leave the desert behind (and you are forced to do so if you want to win) the Egyptians cannot really compete on an equal basis with the European factions especially in High era games.
It's not impossible to win by a long shot, but you are at a disadvantage with regard to units imo.
I don't agree with this. Mameluk cavalry can give a nasty surprise to European nobility and they have troops available to them that can fight under just about any conditions with the exception of Bedouins.
By the way hoe come no one has mentioned Mameluk Horse archers? They are a mainstay in my armies for SP.
Quote[/b] (faisal @ Mar. 05 2003,13:06)]keep in mind the muslims are still good in europe,but there desert based units(ie camels)do not do a good job.Nizaris do not benefit from the desert so they are still effective,so are most Egyptian units.
It's not so much that you are advanteged in the desert, it is that the european powers are disadvantaged.
The Europeans' heavy armour fatigues them so quickly in the desert that their superior armour is offset by the fact they cant lift their swords.
When not fighting in the desert it is not the decreased effectiveness of some units that hurt the egyptians, it is the full effectiveness of their opponents' high armour values.
Leet Eriksson
03-06-2003, 22:55
they are not so effective if you used proper strategies,Mameluke horse archers are particularily good in handling the europeans heavy knights(tire the knights and send mamelukes to flank them)much like in the desert,but it might take a little bit of time becuase europeans don't have penalties in lush or ordinary terrain.don't forget europe is heavily forested,ghazis and nizaris are particularily effective when fighting in trees.
Egyptian lands are rich and they only need a few buildings to produce their troops. Just build lots of units and attack. You'll have more stacks than the European nations. Most Egyptian units have high morale too so it doesn't matter how many of your troops are routing. The reinforcements will kill them eventually.
That said, saracen infantry and muwahid foot are decent mainstays. I use ghazi infantry to attack the flanks and just replace them becuase they are cheap and easily built. I usually have desert archers or mamluk horse archers which are also good. Mamluk and Armenian Heavy Cavalry are decent and Saharan is good for chasing routing troops and archers.
Michael the Great
03-07-2003, 16:15
I'm playing a high campaign with the Egiptyians,and I've conquered the turks,the byzantines,now I'm holding Constantinople and advancing towards Wallachia http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I must say that those Abyssinian Guards rock.
I would preffer them over Ghazis,only that Ghazis have a better charge,and Abyssinians are disciplined(not panicked by death of general),that's the difference between them.
But,of course,I don't think I could of gotten this far without use of my mercenary billmen,vikings and Kwazarmian Cavalry(I only produce them in Egypt),these cavalrymen are good,but are inferior to european knights,and they don't have an irresistible charge,because they have light lances.....I would really wish they had heavy lances,so I could use them as a better shock unit.
Also,Egyptian units with high charges and excellent attack have another advantage-great morale(Ghazis,Nizari,Abyssinians).
I voted for the English ... don't see nothing special, even the longbows are ... well, I don't fancy them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Quote[/b] (faisal @ Mar. 06 2003,15:55)]they are not so effective if you used proper strategies,Mameluke horse archers are particularily good in handling the europeans heavy knights(tire the knights and send mamelukes to flank them)much like in the desert,but it might take a little bit of time becuase europeans don't have penalties in lush or ordinary terrain.don't forget europe is heavily forested,ghazis and nizaris are particularily effective when fighting in trees.
I'm not claiming you cant win with Egyptians in Europe, I have beat the game with them myself and it can most certainly be done, that's not what the thread is about.
I am merely stating that in my opinion, taken allround, the Egyptians have the weakest set of units of the major powers.
They are one of the more entertaining ones to play though.
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