Earned Vices and Virutes

[MacGregor]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me if certain v&v can be earned on the battlefield or if you can only expect people to be born with them. I've seen fearless, utterly fearless, great warrior, and so on. Are these vices picked at random or can one earn them from exploits on the battfield? And if you can earn them does anyone know if theres exact achievements to determine getting them, like having a high number of kills or something like that?

[Knight_Yellow]

some are random but others get picked up by fighting on the battlefield or by building lots of farms etc.


try to get butcher its a great vice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[MonkeyMan]

I'm sure there must be a full list of these somewher by now.

Yup butcher is one of my faves, kill 1001+ captured guys in battle, and get not only butcher but the one before, totalling a +3 to dread. muhaha die rebel scum http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Lord Of Storms]

I started a campaign once and hit the end year button by accident before making any moves and my King got the Hesitant vice

[Demon of Light]

I'm pretty sure a Danish prince who waxed my army once while doing half the damage personally (1 man left in his royal knight group)got Natural Leaer on him. Can't be certain though as the possibilty exists that I overlooked something. I saw Killer Instinct spawn on a Chivalric Knight aft er a battle but I don't recall my general having done anything so spectacular as to warrent it. Good Runner will spawn if your general ever runs away. Doesn't matter if he rallies 30 seconds later and wins the battle.

Skilled Defender seems to have more to do with the degree to which you were outnumbered rather than the relative disproportion of the casualties. I've never seen Utterly Fearless spawn through a generals actions.

Worth noting that about a fifth of the generals in one of my armies gained reigious virtues when passing through a province with 79% zeal. Another time I got a general passing through Tuscany get Truly Pious and Secret Perversion when zeal was (no kidding) 100%. Happened to someone else a couple of turns later. I think the Catholic priest scandal may have influenced the designers.

[pdoan8]

There is a full list of V&V in the TOC - V&V section - First entry.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/003437.html

There is a little mistake in the list: "+1 happiness" and "+2 happiness" should be "+10% happiness" and "+20% happiness".

I think that V&V can be divided into 3 major groups:

1) Naturally or assigned at the spawn time. These can not be gained. I think all of the "Leader" and "Warrior" V&V are in this category.
2) Random assigned overtime. Maybe, most can be randomly assigned, but most likely are those related to social life or religion believe (family, marriage,education, charateristic, ...) ie "Adultery", "Believer", "Well educate", Eloquent".
3) Can be gained or influenced by the course/events of the game or player actions/decision such as Battle V&V, Governor's V&V, ..., ie "Skilled Attacker", "Builder", "Butcher", "Informant", "Man of Hornour".

In category 2 and 3, the outcome of the game may influence the chance of a certain V&V would be assigned, ie "Coruption", "Gambler", "Educated" V&V. You have very little to no control of how/when these V&V would be assigned, but these V&V would be randomly assigned if you reach a certain level of economic/social/provincial developement and may also depend on the distance of the governor/provinces from the King or central government.

[Michael the Great]

Once I had a general who had 7 stars,was a skilled attacker and natural leader,but I didn't use him for some time....and he got the "lazy" vice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Jxrc]

Quote[/b] (Michael the Great @ Mar. 15 2003,16:21)]Once I had a general who had 7 stars,was a skilled attacker and natural leader,but I didn't use him for some time....and he got the "lazy" vice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
A possible solution is to put all the good general you can spare (i.e. that you do not leave on the front line) in the same stack as you king. I have tried this several times and they did not get any bad V&V such as lazy, alcoholic, etc. They did not get any good one either.

Of course that something you can only do if you do not have too many provinces to defend or if you really have plenty of good generals (English, French, Byz.); Almost impossible if playing as the HRE.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Divine Wind]

Wow i never knew there were so many v+v's. thx for the link http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[NewJeffCT]

great list I never knew there were so many, either. My favorite was when I watched the great Khan of the Golden Horde develop first "Good Runner" and then "Doubtful Courage" and then "Coward" for a -9 morale. Seems almost wrong that I drove him off so easily and he kept coming back for more. Maybe he should have gotten "Glutton for Punishment"??

[LordKhaine]

Its fun to screw up kings and generals by swarming them with assassins and inquisitors. Even if you dont kill them, they get a load of virtues, often bad ones.

I think a lot of the "random" ones are linked to events in some small way.

[dunno]

Actually, I've had a couple generals gain "Natual Leader" after a battle. I've even made one able to progess to "Fine leader". However, since I seem to have a hard time reproducing it consistently, I suppose it *could* be coincidence and that it was a random virtue. But it seems if you tend use your general to attack first and lead the charge into the enemy, it increases the chances of gaining this virtue. I've gotten it only twice though, but both times I know that I use my general to do the first attack.

Anyways, your general can get "Natural born killer" or "killer instinct" if he personally kills a lot of men in battle (cumulative). I'm not sure how much but I know I've gotten this consistently with some of my more super generals after killing a lot of enemies.

If your general gets captured and ransomed back, he can get "Captured" and if it keeps happening, it can progress to "tortured" then "traumatised".

If you leave your general in a province with very high zeal, he may develop "Fervent" then maybe progress to "zealot" and "true zealot". I've had this happen consistently several times by leaving generals in a 100% zeal province.

You can make a general a "Believer" if you use an inquisitor on him (or someone else does) and it fails. If this keeps happening, it'll progress to "devout" but then it'll add "secret atheist" and if it keeps going further it will be "atheist". There are also V&Vs associated with failed spy and assassin attempts.

You can get "skilled last stand" if you defend against maybe 2:1 or 3:1 odds or more and win. There's a similar one for attacking, which is "skilled risky attacker".

You can get "Steward" if he's a governor and his province builds farms. It can progress to "great steward" and "magnificent steward". Governors can also get "builder", "great builder" and "magnificent builder".

There's a rare one "skilled assaulter" which I've managed to have one general get after a successful assault. However I can't seem to get it consistently. I've had generals who've assaulted 12 times in a row and won but never got any virtue for it. But one time this general gains this after I do one assault (without artillery) so I'm not sure about this one. I think it might have to do with the odds and not using artillery. So if you can assault successfully without too much numerical advantage (or none at all preferably) and without using any artillery maybe you'll get this.

[LordKhaine]

Doesnt always end that way with Inquistors. As with the assassin ones, it can go one of two ways. Send in enough Inquistors, and the guy with turn into a Heretic/Athiest, or he will become "Born Again".

Same with Assassins, they'll either gain virtues that protect them more from assassins, or they'll get nervous and start losing health and suchlike.

[Goatus Maximus]

It seems that a lot of the battle-relevant V & V get activated based on the odds. I've seemed to observe that my generals will only get Expert Attacker/Defender, etc. when faced with a numerically superior enemy. Although this seems to me that you should get the Poor Odds Attacker/Defender in that case? Hrrrmmmm...

That list of V&V is great...has anyone ever seen the Legendary Leader? I think the best Virtues I've ever gotten are Mighty Warrior & Great Leader.

Also, does anyone know what actions you can take to gain the Trading virtues? I always aggressively pursue trade, but I've never received one of these, except for starting out the game as the Doge.

[Div Hunter]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Didn't know there were that many V&Vs

To get Good Risky Attacker I used about 200 men (all cav & cav archers) against 1500 rebels (nearly all peasants) and obviously whipped their sorry asses http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[hoom]

I got good risky attacker (& I think some others) with one 80 strong unit of Kats + a couple of light cav vs ~2500 peasants + fanatics.
Kats got over 1700 kills + ~250 captures

I hadn't really realised there would be as many as 200 v&vs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[dunno]

Quote[/b] ]
That list of V&V is great...has anyone ever seen the Legendary Leader? I think the best Virtues I've ever gotten are Mighty Warrior & Great Leader.


I have, though he was born with it. It was on a French heir (and later king). I think the warrior virtues are more useful so you can bring your general in a lot more combat. I've never seen Famous Warrior (+20 health), though, in the several months I've had this game. I tend to get quite plentiful heirs with Great Warrior, but Might Warrior is almost as rare as Famous Warrior, though I've seen it a few times with the historical characters that you sometimes get when you train a unit.

[Hakonarson]

I've got a 9-star general in a Saharan Cav unit who's a coward - along with a huge number of other vices he rates 8 dread, 6 or 7 piety, bucket loads of loyalty. He's got butcher, natural leader, great defender, good attacker, etc.

IIRC his overall effect even with the -9 morale for coward is +2 or 3, and that's just the ones that have numerical values attached - he also bumps up valour by 3 or 4 points on every unit he commands which is rather useful http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[NateEngle]

I've had games where I've really counted on Skilled Defender bonuses because without it the generals themselves were so mediocre. One nice thing I like about Russian Boyars is that they appear to be able to avoid getting tagged with "Not So Bold" as long as they get close enough to shoot a few arrows at an enemy. Typically I try to keep my leaders out of combat so that's one I see fairly often. I hate it when my best general is a camel warrior or a peasant who can't ever engage the enemy with any natural abilities and expect to come out on top. It just makes their cowardly reputation inevitable.

[Demon of Light]

Quote[/b] (Goatus Maximus @ Mar. 28 2003,21:50)]Also, does anyone know what actions you can take to gain the Trading virtues? I always aggressively pursue trade, but I've never received one of these, except for starting out the game as the Doge.
My brother discovered this one yesteday. I have a Danish game that already entered the 1400's. At this point, with my winning by such a large margin, I wasn't too interested in building. My brother played the game for a while and did a massive purchase of every economic building he saw. Agriculture, mines, and trading posts. He continued this policy for a while and the King eventually ended up with the Magnificent Builder and Steward virtues together with Trader. Essentially, it seems to work the same way Steward does. The difference is that you build and upgrade alot of trading centers.

Honestly, it would not have occurred to me to do this anyhow. I'm usually more concerned with farms or spearmakers or whatever else. I build trading posts and upgrade them to merchant and merchant guilds but not consistantly, heavily or in the reign of the same monarch. Due to the circumstances, I am uncertain if the level of developement for these upgrades made a difference. 3 or 4 master merchants were being built at the same time.