Big Battles--this ever happen to you?

[Forward Observer]

In my latest single player campaign, I have had at least 3 back to back successful large battles as the Danes defending Aquitane from the Almohads. In every battle, I had approximately 2000 to 2500 troops and the invaders had 3000 to 4000. The battles all had time limits in the 1 1/2 to 2 hour time ranges, but I knew that I had a chance fighting the battles manually while the auto-resolve option would automatically give me a defeat. Luckily, I did win them all.

The thing that was odd was that toward the end of each battle, the last of the successive waves of enemy re-enforcements started approaching in these weird single rank 100 man wide formations. They looked kind of like a sidewinder snake slithering towards my lines. Sometimes they didn't even approach, but just marched back and forth undulating across the terrain. This kept up until the clock ran out.

I don't remember that ever happening before pre-patch, but wondered if anyone's else has seen it?



P.S. By the way, a odd mistake, on my part, actually helped me win the first battle, and now I consider it a valid tactic that I will use on purpose in the future, and I thought it might be of use to others.

In the very first battle I was outnumbered about 3 to 2 as mentioned. To make matters worse, my general was a only a 4 star and the enemy leader was a 5 or 6 star. The map was tough with no really perfect high ground to set up a good defense.

I picked what I thought was best, got set up, and clicked the start button. Of course it immediately started pouring rain, which meant that my archers would not be nearly as effective as they could be. As I feared, it didn't go well. After a fairly pitched battle my first main army routed. The kill total was pretty even at that point, and even though the enemy general got whacked, his army just wouldn't break. I thought it was all over but the shouting.

I started hitting the re-enforcement button just to get it over with---I thought. Luckily, my general and his group of royal knights had run off in a far corner chasing some routing enemy archers, so he was still intact.

Normally I would have placed the rally point flag directly behind where I was defending, but to my surprise I realized that I had accidentally placed the flag on my side of the map, but at the other end.

This meant that my re-enforcements were coming onto the field well away from where the remainder of the Almohad army presently was. This worked out perfectly, since I was able to get my fresh re-enforcements totally organized, get my general back to them, and set up a new defensive position well before the enemy could cross the map to my new position. It stopped raining too.

What was left of the original depleted tired Almohad army routed under my new barrage of missile fire. Successive enemy re-enforcements just never came out in strength.

I was able to dole out constant missile fire, and continue to replace my archers as they ran out of ammo. The Danes finally won the day.

Some of you may have already discovered this tactic of flag placement, but if not you may want to consider it when orchestrating a large battle----especially if there is the least chance that your initial defending army might rout. You can always reposition the flag later if things go differently.

Cheers

[ichi]

FO:

Same thing happened to me as the Turks, against the Byz. I won the first round, barely, and was looking at a few hundred men, mostly in 10s and 20s, at the second full wave of Byz Inf and Cav and Kwaz Cav. I was doomed.

They got to midfield and started zig-zagging, like they were looking for me, but also on some wild Byz weed.

I sent out the few archers I had to snipe, and when I started getting some hits on a unit that unit would chase my guys back to my position, where I would use entire army to rout it. But they never came in force.

When I tried to quit and save at the end of the night, it crashed to desktop.

ichi

[Nowake]

Thx, Forward Observer ... Even if I moved the rally flag sometimes to fit a good position, I never used this tactic, but it seems pretty logic ...

[71-hour Ahmed]

I've had the egytians doing manouvers outside my castle instead of attacking for 45 mins. very weird, partic. as the walls were down and there was few defenders. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Tigger]

yeah i've seen this before too

Generally I find that battles quite often go a bit wierd after the first wave, especially if the enemy general is dead/captured. When enemey reinforcements come on they really don't seem to know what to do with themselves, wandering all over the place and occasionally attacking with only one unit??

Some work needed on this methinks...

[A.Saturnus]

Have never seen this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
I`m not sure but I think I posted that trick with the flag before. Saved me once from VGs. And it doesn`t feel like cheating, cause it`s normal a army regroups away from the enemy.

[NateEngle]

Before I realized the power of halberds I developed a standard tactic that I refer to as "Tag and Hide&Seek".

Basically start with 15 archers and a general on the field. Line them all up at the back edge of the map, with archers 1 rank deep (generally 3 groups of 5 so they don't have far to run). It helps to have high ground and a good unobstructed field of fire. Then fire like crazy until the enemy gets too close, and run like a little girl when they start their charge (Ctrl-W to withdraw).

For later reinforcements you can get by with as little as a single hobilar or whatever light cav you have available (although it doesn't hurt to have a couple). Be sure to move the rally flag to bring them on someplace where they'll be unmolested. In one case by accident I brought on a steppe cav right in the center of the line and had to really dig the spurs in to get them clear of the carnage. Then after that all you have to do is stay away from the enemy.

In a typical case with this tactic I'd expect to kill between 200 and 500 enemies before being forced back. My highest score with it was 614 killed for a loss of 3 archers. Pull it off several years in a row and you can attrit away an awful lot of enemies.

Bear in mind that if you come within a critical reaction distance they will chase you, and if you leave any of your original starting 16 on the map they'll chase them down and kill them, but otherwise you're free to go whereever you like with your reinforcements. Typically I like to run them into a woods deep behind enemy lines and get concealed out of the way of any enemy reinforcements, but I know there have also been times when I camped out on a ridge line in full view of the enemy, or even launched attacks on vulnerable peasants or archers coming forward as replacements for the enemy.

It's true that for a while they'll form the wide sweeping lines and march around trying to initiate an encounter (probably trying to find concealed enemies), but eventually they get tired and just stop.

This is definitely what I would call a "cheesy" tactic, and not one that I like using when I have a chance to deal a real defeat to the enemy, but I also know there have been times when it really saved my bacon. I used it once against an initial spawn of the Mongol Horde - killed 100-odd with a loss of 22, and then after the battle pulled in 11,000 prisoners who had nowhere to retreat.

Of course, having described this I'm guessing that it won't be possible to do in VI, but that's Ok...

[SeveredSoul]

I recently had about 600 enemy reinforcements, all pesants, Just put all of their formations in front of 4 units of my Longbows. They just came in and put all 6 units in one big group, all in one place. More like a crowd. Needless to say, many of them died and a calvary charge just cleaned up the rest of them. If I rember correctly I had more that 1000 captured. Foolish little pesants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[kataphraktoi]

When u guys defend do you wait for them to come in contact with your forces or do you attack immediately while they're slowly marching towards you. u wait to engage or engage when possible for victory?

I like the pincer attack when defending, sometimes I do a suicidal charge if everything goes against me, ever used the pincer or the desperate charge?

[TanDaraDei]

My usuall defence tactic is to place the main force archers, cavalary stoppers plus some shock and heavy cav (or whatever i have available) at the furhest possible edge of the map and two or three ranged light cav (mounted xbows, jinettes) close to the enemy. Than I use these light units to harass the enemy (unless of course he is packed with archers). Usually the light cav makes the enemy divide his forces wildly chasing my units and his main force clashing with my defence line is severely weakend. This usually allows to turn the ods.

One more tip, rather obvious I guess, if the enemy brings some siege equipment to battle it is pretty easy to destroy it for my light cav once the main enemy force marches past it towards my position. However I never do this, cause my main force deployed at the edge of the map is outside of their range and at the same time 3 or 4 of enemy's slots are occupied by units completely useless in such battle. If i'd destroy it he'd bring some serious units that could actually fight. Thus it's pretty nice (but maybe somewhat cheesy) to save the enemy's sieges until the end.

[LordKhaine]

When you're in a battle with over 130 units in reserve.... you know you shoulda auto-resumed it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[insolent1]

I had someone do the hide & seek lame trick on me in multiplayer back in the shogun days. I beat their main army & then he just ran his cav archers around the map my poor nodachi's couldn't catch him, then the timer ran out & he won http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[kataphraktoi]

I hate losing battles by default so I turned off the timer.

Wars weren't meant to last for 35 mins, like Bush's war http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Nowake]

His war seems to be longer than that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[NateEngle]

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ April 02 2003,23:27)]When u guys defend do you wait for them to come in contact with your forces or do you attack immediately while they're slowly marching towards you. u wait to engage or engage when possible for victory?

I like the pincer attack when defending, sometimes I do a suicidal charge if everything goes against me, ever used the pincer or the desperate charge?
I definitely counter-charge when on defense, although it's important to be careful about doing it when it might leave you vulnerable to getting swarmed. My favorite scenario for a counter-charge is to nail a lone unit unsupported that's trying to march around my flank (since there's plenty of time to defeat them and then get back into position). I also do it when it's a question of doing a quick sideways shift in order to create a favorable match-up - rushing in some swordsmen to keep enemy swords from getting into my spears, or to keep enemy spears from getting at a cavalry reserve.

I've played around with doing the charge and not doing it, because doing the charge definitely involves the risk of getting my own line disordered. For troops that don't have much of a charge bonus it's clearly less important, but even in that case I've come to the conclusion that the initial moment of contact is so important that it's usually worth accepting the risk.

The bottom line is that units that stand still just count far too much on the assumption that they aren't going to get pushed back during inital contact. Once you start falling back it can be tough to recover, and I'm pretty sure that's been a major factor sometimes when troops who are otherwise very closely matched with enemies seem to be losing for no obvious reason. They start by getting pushed back and then they never recover enough to turn it into a winnable contest. It's also important to bear in mind that units ordered to Hold Formation suffer a -2 to their attack, so that's just one more reason that it's worth getting your spears moving before contact.

The outcome of battle is an aggregate of lots of tiny factors - the guy who takes advantage of the biggest set of pluses will be the one who comes out on top. Just being on the hill top is nice, and just having rank bonuses is nice too, but neither one is a big enough bonus by itself to over-power the momentum of a charge.

[Stormer]

looking good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[A.Saturnus]

I only counter-attack while defending in special situations. Like when I don`t have a good defence position or the enemy has only much weaker troops than I. Most of the time I wait at a good position, take the incoming foe under fire and charge at the last moment.

[Ligur]

I love a nice downhill counter attack when I'm defending. If I suspect I could win after my arrows have ran out I sometimes select my whole army and charge it 100 meters forward without giving any specific targets. After the dust settles I form a new line and recycle archers. Whoopee.