Couple of itsy-bitsy questions for Target...

[Yoshitsune]

Just wondered why no option seems to be available in the x-pack for 'historical accuracy' mode for the Mongol scenarios? Ability to 'mod' or exclude non-historical troop types (eg ashi x-bows, ninja, sword saints etc) to bring more of a flavour of 13th Century Japan at the time of the Invasions?

OK, I know this isn't everyones cup of cha because they have no interest in real Japan - just pure tactical gameplay no matter how abstracted. Fine - that's why a suggest game options. That way you would also capture the type of gamer who loves the history of the period and enjoys getting as close as possible to being in the shoes of the historical generals. You know - 'could I do any better given similar choices and conditions' which is what makes historical scenarios so immersive. I'm not talking slavish 100% detail - just the general conditions.

OK, in 'historical mode' there would be fewer Japanese troop types and lots more Mongol/Chinese types so that might put some people off but they might be tempted by the 'what if' appeal.

Is there a campaign map editor? This would add a great deal of possibilities...

Even disregarding historical accuracy, why are there so many examples of unreal 'internal logic'? Just two examples:
A)In the information released so far we hear Mongol Light Cav are 1) faster 2) better in melee 3) better in defensive protection than Samurai Cavalry Archers. Why? Mongol Lt Cav have little or no armour whereas Sam CA do (especially at the time of the Mongol Invasions where they had heavy armour). Sorry it makes no sense.
B)Sam Heavy Cav are described as being both more heavily armoured AND faster than Naginata Cav. How can this be logical?

Are all these things just sacrifices to 'balance and variety'? If history matters so little in a game that claims to historical on the box blurb, what prospects for the Crusaders game? Is Robin Hood included? :P

[Jon]

Again questions!

1. How many new animations are included in the game, e.g the ninja assasination attempts. Also what is your favourite?

2. Apparently the Mongols have no strategic units, so is their anyway they can tamper with the enemy's plans other than defeat them on the battlefield?

3. In my humble opinion, the shinobi are a little redundant, especially with the advent of geisha late in the game. Their advice of impending attacks is usually wrong, so have they been souped up?

4. Lastly, very important, does the A.I still cheat, or is it now on an equal footing with the player. And has the infamous Hojo horde been rectified?

[BakaGaijin]

I usually assumed the reason the Shinobi were wrong is that I usually attacked the province that was supposed to attack me before their attack came. Hehehe. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Jon]

Rocky road!

[Kraellin]

yoshitsune,

your question has been asked several times before in several different threads. there is no mod editor and we dont know why they chose to go the way they did...balance and interest, i suppose.

i'm one of those that takes the opposite side of your desire/requests. i just like gaming and if it also happens to be historical, well ok. but i do understand your desire (even though i've poked fun at the historically minded around here a bit in the past). and it's not likely that we'll see a unit editor in the near or even distant future. there are several reasons for this: once a unit editor comes out there is no standard any more and if everyone makes mods to their units no one would ever be able to play anyone else in multi cause we'd all have incompatible units. cracking the unit stats opens the door to cheats in a big way. ca prolly doesnt have the resources to make one with any hope of a bean return to replenish those resources...time and money. cracking the unit stats along with the pictorial aspects gives everyone their own sequel engine so ca is out of the total war business cause every player with the unit editor can now make their own period games.

there's prolly even a couple more reasons than that, but i think that covers things fairly well at the moment...oh yeah, the unit stats are reported to be locked in the main executable...big file, hard to find individual hexidecimal codes and ca seems to use some coding techniques that done lend themselves to easy manipulation.

a couple of months ago there were some long debates in the mods section over making unit mods...they all died an ignominious death with nothing ever done on the subject. but feel free to resurrect them.

i also posted just about the same solution you're offering...allow us to make stat changes so that the history guys could be happy and the weirdos like me could also be happy. i doubt it'll ever happen, unless ca just gets so bored with the whole total war engine that they decide to release the code...and that aint gonna happen fer a while, bubba ;)

as for a campaign editor, yeah, i'd like one too. in fact i'd like to be able to make campaign maps that arent japan at all, but are pure fantasy. that's prolly not gonna happen either. the reality seems to be that ca is a rather small company. they make the game, not ea. ea is a big company, but as far as shogun is concerned, my impression was that ea was pretty much the distributor/marketer for the game, whereas ca did the programming, graphics, music and so on. now, others have said this isnt totally true, that ea does have more influence on things that i originally thought. heck, they might even be funding ca for all i know at this point. the point is though, ca is a relatively small company with limited resources. that means that we dont see a 10 meg patch every week to tweak things, nor even every 6 weeks.

my experience with game programmers and game companies has been that they like to put out a product and move on to the next one. a patch, in their eyes, is a reluctantly done, albeit necessary, evil. it's really kinda too bad that this is how the industry seems to do things. it's also quite wasteful on their part. a game company may take several years to put out its next product while players are screaming for mods and improvements on the one they just did. why not just take responsibility for the product you already have and make it better? there's no reason you cant charge for that and it doesnt even have to be a big sequel thing. there's no reason you cant make an expansion pack that is nothing more than fixes, new features, tweaks to graphics and sound, and player wish list stuff and also expect a money return for doing so. it's not going to be the full game price, but if ca had done nothing more than fix a few bugs in the game and added even half of my wish list that i wouldnt have gladly paid 25-50% of the original cost of the game. economically it makes sense for them as well. if you can do all that in 6 months as opposed to the year for the next game engine sequel, and charge 50% of the original, then you're still making the same amount of money per annum AND get the bonus of happier, more loyal customers.

the 2 biggest complaints in here about ca/ea are 'broken promises' and 'they dont listen to us'. the first one is easy to fix...quit promising ANYTHING! the 2nd is covered by what i said in the last paragraph. give the customers what they want, for god's sake! sure, we'd like more sequels, but we want the current game we already PAID for fixed and tweaked and shined up real purty. and this also makes doing sequels much easier. the game engine is now tweaked out so come sequel time there's less to re-tweak. everything already works, so the patches get smaller and smaller and the wish lists start becoming just what period we'd like to see in the next sequel and not tweaks to the current engine.

ok, i've ranted long enough. and i cant even answer your questions fully. for that you'll have to get ahold of mr. de Plater (?), the head guy behind stw. besides, i'm sure others want to talk now ;)

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

[Target]

eep! Lots of tricky questions!

OK, I'l do my best, but I'm not a Japanese history expert, and you lot seem to know a lot more about it all than I do. Still, better go for my general disclaimer just in case I get into trouble. Ahem:

These are my opinions and my opinions only. They do not in any way reflect the views of either Creative Assembly or Electronic Arts. Any comments written here, be they accidentally accurate, erronious or downright lies ( http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif) are mine and mine alone and should not be taken as an official statement from of either of the afore mentioned companies in any way state or form.

Yoshi suggests an feature that sounds like a cool idea - unfortunately we didn't think of it. While the inclusion of units like the ashi xbowmen has them transplanted out of their own time, their inclusion actually adds something to the game and it was felt that that's a good enough reason for them to be included ( waits for the counter-arcuement that if we're sacrificing historical accuracy for content, why not include tanks and jet-planes? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif). We're not saying that we're pinning the era down with historical precision, but we are basing it on historical fact. As far as I know, all the units in the game existed at one time, including the Kensai, the Battlefield Ninja and the Ashi Xbowmen. We've been kept on the right track with advice from Dr Turnbull, but as far as historical accuracy goes we've sort of shot ourselves in the foot with the Mongol Invasion because the whole XP is a fantasy "what-if" scenario.

What everyone seems to be pining for is the option to build theire own scenarios into the game - their own units, their own campaigns, perhaps even their own world. One of the main regrets we had when we finished STW was the fact that we hadn't catered for the mod community, and it's something that hasn't been fully rectified with the expansion pack. There is a built-in map editor and you can create your own historical battles, but the stratmap is still unalterable ( although you can create your own start positions now ), and the unit stats are still off-limits.

It's a frustrating state of affairs - with the right tools, Yoshi, you could find out if you're right about a more historical game, or Trolls Vs Dwarves:TW could be played more on line than a certain counterterrorist FPS game - or maybe even a game based on a certain film set a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. It's a state of affairs that probably won't be fully resolved for at least a few months to come.

While I'm very proud of what we've done, it's the nature of games programming to look at the end result and see only the things you've missed or didn't have enough time to put it. Games are there to entertain people and, on the whole, I think we've done quite well.

As far as your questions about unreal internal logic goes, they could be answered with any number of different responses but it ultimately comes down to game balancing. If the Naginata Cav were cheaper, faster, more deadly in combat and generally better than the heavy cav, no-one would play the HCs any more. My opinion is that the NajCav are a bit too powerful for what they cost, but I haven't played the game as much as the test depts and no doubt some people would diasagree with me. In fact, I'm sure of it.

Just read through what I've written, and it sounds very defensive. Sorry about that, matey, it wasn't supposed to be. You raise some very good points but I don't think I'm the person to answer them satisfactorily. Not trying to pass the buck 'cos I would give you the answers if I had them, but you'll have to make do with my opinions for the time being.

Oh, and Robin of Loxley did actually exist and he was an outlaw and he did rouse rabbles - that we're sure of. All that other stuff about robbing the rich and giving to the poor and beating up the evil Sheriff of Nottingham in the name of Richard the Lionheart is stuff of legend - but it makes for good reading http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Jon err.. dunno how many new anims there are. More than one. Most of them involving ninja. There are some intros and outros as well for the campaigns as well.

Mongols are restricted to killing everyone on sight. They make no alliances, they assasinate noone. The win buy slicing their enemies up, making them into pin cushions and occasionally blowing them to bits.

The geisha have been powered down to make the game less of a race to see who can build geisha the fastest. Also, the AI immediately counter geisha building by training ninja as fast as possible to take care of them. As soon as the first geisha appears, the map gets swamped with men of the shadows faster than you can say "Did you hear something?"

The Hojo hoarde does not happen on the same scale as it used to. No more Great Wall of Hojo across the middle of the map - he's more aggressive when he has large amounts of troops. The AI, while improved, will never be on the same footing as a player because humans can adapt much more quickly that the machine does.

OK, that's me done. I hope I don't get into trouble for this.

[This message has been edited by Target (edited 08-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Target (edited 08-06-2001).]

[BakaGaijin]

Quote Mongols are restricted to killing everyone on sight. They make no alliances, they assasinate noone. The win buy slicing their enemies up, making them into pin cushions and occasionally blowing them to bits.[/QUOTE]

Hey, sounds like my kind of game... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Kraellin: The source of most of the problems you describe lies not with the game developers (well, okay... sometimes, they do), but with the fans themselves.

Look at what happened to Valve after the release of Half-Life! Everybody wants them to fix up Counter-Strike! Fix up TFC! Add this feature! Change that one! Fix this and that cheat! And then... Oh, God. Look at how long these people are taking on TF2! They make Daikatana look reasonable!

You see? If you don't have reasonable expectations, you will be disappointed. Now, bug fixes are obviously necessary things, especially with a game as popular (with cheaters, as well as normal gamers) as Half-Life. Valve has an obligation to fix things they broke. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif However, the fans have no concept whatsoever of the IMMENSE challenges facing a company trying to patch up a game which is constantly hounded by cheaters who are just going to crack the fixes within a day or two, anyway. Oh, and they kind of working on one of the most anticipated FPS games in history on the side.

Obviously, CA doesn't have the massive problems of Valve Software... they also don't have the resources of the Valve/Sierra partnership. EA is a huge game company, but let's face the facts and admit that Shogun didn't sell anywhere NEAR what Half-Life did. So, we really ought to be more understanding if they can't patch up every minor squabble and patch on several hundred directly-contradictory fan suggestions at the same time that they're polishing up an expansion pack and beginning development on a true sequel. They're only human, though they might sometimes seem as Gods to us. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

So, you know... cut CA a little slack and let them do their thing.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Jon]

Great stuff Target.

[Nelson]

Rest assured Yoshitsune. People WILL demand an elite archer bandit unit in Crusaders.

[qwertyuiop]

Just somthing to justify the xbow men that I thought of while reading this.

I am sure every historical player can make such an excuse like this to satisfy their own need for realism.

As everyone knows the mongols didn't make it across that big lake. If they did I am sure japanise technology would evolve at a higher or different pace to compensate. I will just say they 'evolved' and integrated a cross bow.

I am not saying you have to think that, just that I am sure you can justify it on your own historicly some how depending on your knowledge. Its a cross bow, not a nuke http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Where other people can justify it as its just a game, others can do stuff like that http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
-T-

[Muneyoshi]

Weel put T

[Muneyoshi]

forgot how to speel there. How do you spell that anyways? My minds blocked.

[Grim]

I just hope the expansion's new units will be balanced... THEN I will write history And the world will tremble. Hehehe http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Su Yee DaddisHeer]

from what i hear they arent all that balanced actually, ranging from the worthless (crossbowmen) to the superhuman (kensai)-check out www.pczone.co.uk (http://www.pczone.co.uk) and the mongol invasion review to see what i mean

[Jon]

Yes, but the P.C Gamer review has nothing but praise, so we will just have to wait untill it is released to see which review is right.

[Su Yee DaddisHeer]

i hope the pc gamer review proves to be correct, can someone post a rundown of what that review says, there is nothing on the website about it (both UK and American)

[Yoshitsune]

Thanks for interesting comments to all but especially to Target for taking the time to make a comprehensive reply. No, you don't sound defensive at all http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif What I should have also have mentioned is that I believe STW to be the best tactical game system out there - which is why would love to see it live up to its full potential and drag in as wide an audience as possible. Dare I hope some of your comments suggested some possible remedy for people of my affliction??

My big problem, of course, is that I have such a deep interest in early samurai history it would probably be impossible to satisfy my totally unrealistic expectations http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif OTOH I will probably enjoy playing 'Crusaders' more than STW precisely because I don't have any great historical knowledge of the period but still think it sounds 'kewl' (does that make sense?...) Little Knights and Saracens hitting eachother - sounds great http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I do stand by what I said about those totally ahistorical units though. I can't think what the good Dr. Turnbull was thinking of if he suggested ashi x-bows etc. I have all his books plus more 'primary' sources such as translations of the old war chronicles and reproductions of contemporary picture scrolls. Hand-held x-bows were *never* used in Japan in any period on the battlefield or there would be mention somewhere. The nearest thing was large 'o-yumi' artillery used in the Nara period 4 centuries before - but they died out of use as they didn't suit the undisciplined mode of warfare that the samurai brought. OTOH they would have been just right for the Chinese troops that the Mongols brought 'across the lake' in the 13thC.

Even Turnbull's Ninja book says they never wore black and as for use on the battlefield? Well, certain samurai warriors skilled in subterfuge were used in the Iga campaign of the 16th Century but on the battlefield they just looked and fought as samurai...Everything else comes out of late Edo period folklore

Kensai (kensei?) were lone warriors or ronin that wandered the countryside of Tokugawa/Edo Japan. Not something the Mongols would have encountered on the battlefield in the 13thC (they wouldn't have lasted long given the Mongol/Chinese disciplined units).

Cheers again

[HATAMOTOKILL]

Quote Originally posted by Su Yee DaddisHeer:
from what i hear they arent all that balanced actually, ranging from the worthless (crossbowmen) to the superhuman (kensai)-check out[/QUOTE]so what are these crossbowmen going to be good for?morale maybe?if not why in game http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif



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Hato!!!
Knight Owltwwooo!!!
http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/contrib/legionxs/ninja1.gif

[Algesan]

Quote Originally posted by HATAMOTOKILL:

Originally posted by Su Yee DaddisHeer:
from what i hear they arent all that balanced actually, ranging from the worthless (crossbowmen) to the superhuman (kensai)-check outso what are these crossbowmen going to be good for?morale maybe?if not why in game http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

[/QUOTE]


Cheap missile units, cannon fodder, placeholders, etc. :lol

[Anssi Hakkinen]

I still haven't heard what's wrong with having an unit to replace the arquebusiers for Mongol games. How would to be any less worthy than the guns we all know and love?

(Apart from that unhistoricality, of course.)

[Roman Totale XVII]

Why not just have Ashi archers instead? A cheap low-quality, less effective bow unit in full keeping with Samurai military philosophy of the period...