View Full Version : Creative Assembly Viking berserkers
Michael the Great
03-28-2003, 21:17
Wonder if these will be something like gallowglasses?
I think even Gallowglasses are a touch too 'mild' to draw a favorable comparison to Berzerkers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I think Berzerkers will be the Nordic equivalen of Ghazi except they'll defend better, wear next to no armor and possess even higher morale.
SeveredSoul
03-28-2003, 23:58
Here is my guess. CA could answer this better than I could but here goes. I think the berserkers will have very light to no armor and be armed with an ax and have high starting valor. I believe their units will be smaller on average. Maybe like the Vangarin (sp?) Guard, 60 men or so. It's possible to imagine 60 Berserkers, not breaking, but fighting to the last man.
Kongamato
03-29-2003, 00:29
In the screenshots, they appear as 12 man units. I expect them to be impetuous and fiercely strong. Their one-handed sword does not justify a Gallow-style charge though. I think they will have a high attack and a good defense. Since they cannot hide, I expect ranged units to be a must for dealing with these. Their low numbers will be their weakness.
On a similar note, expect the Jomsvikings to be even stronger, better armored, and possibly better disciplined.
Check out the Total War site. The Berserker is a bare-chested looking dude with a sword. The Jomsviking is a big strong guy armed with an axe and mail.
I figure beserkers will have morale penalty to the enemy like camels have vs horse.
low discipline, like much worse than christian knights...
Perhaps Berserkers are like the assassins in MTW.
I once wondered how good assassins can stand even against cavalry, but they are looking the same as desert archers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
Pablo Sanchez
03-29-2003, 22:16
Quote[/b] (arrrse @ Mar. 29 2003,08:21)]I figure beserkers will have morale penalty to the enemy like camels have vs horse.
low discipline, like much worse than christian knights...
It should probably be something like:
Excellent Attack
Irresistable Charge
Excellent Morale
Charges Without Orders
Weak defence
Small shield
And then they'd inflict a morale penalty on all enemy troops.
No shield ...
They should attack your own troops if deployed too close or once engaged in battle ... do they drink the potion on the battlefield or before?
Pablo Sanchez
03-29-2003, 22:30
Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ Mar. 29 2003,15:24)]No shield ...
They should attack your own troops if deployed too close or once engaged in battle ... do they drink the potion on the battlefield or before?
Well, in the screenies I looked at, I saw a 12-man unit with a shield and sword. And Berserkers were described as biting their shields with bloodlust before battles.
no i think there be more like Religious Fanatics (nutters)
with horns.
Kongamato
03-29-2003, 23:30
To be infantry and have a good charge, you need a really heavy weapon. Berserkers have just a one-handed sword, no massive KE there. I say give them a charge of 4 or 6.
The Blind King of Bohemia
03-29-2003, 23:46
Hey dudes remember there are pictish Berzerkers as well. God i can't wait for this game,you guys in the states get it 3 days before us europeans,lucky b**tards
Hakonarson
03-30-2003, 07:29
The main historical function of berserkers was as tax collectors for hte local lords - they intimidated peasants quite nicely.
So I'd expect their effects might be to increase tax take in the provinces they're stationed in
Seriously - they were NEVER deployed as any sort of unit on the battlefield. Indeed they were positively discouraged, since they were individuals and one person going berserk would leave a hole in the shieldwall.
Goatus Maximus
03-30-2003, 10:39
Hakonarson, I'm curious to learn more about this role of the Berserker as tax collector. I've only ever heard of them as described in an earlier post...that is as the elite (or at least most fearsome) of the Viking warriors, known for whipping themselves into a frenzy before battle Are there any links you could provide?
Thanks
Big King Sanctaphrax
03-30-2003, 19:48
I think the impetuous nature of the beserkers was so strong that it should be represented by having them always charge the enemy, no matter what, with no way of stopping them.
Captain Fishpants
04-01-2003, 10:24
Just so that you know:
Berserkers come in units of 12 men. They carry swords and round shields, and have no armour. They are extremely quick. They are very, very dangerous. You don't order them into the attack so much as unleash them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
MikeB ~ CA
Thx, but that's what we know also ...
Captain Fishpants
04-01-2003, 15:02
I should also have added that they're impetuous little devils...
In playtesting my favourite way of using them was to sneak them through the woods on a flank and then fall on some poor unsuspecting peasants or other weaklings. The result would usually be the complete disruption of any enemy as his men struggled to escape from the loonies attacking them At the end of the battle the Berserkers who remained had usually managed to gain substantial amounts of valour too
MikeB ~ CA
Hello Captain Fishpants,
That valour gaining during battle is something many MP players want to get rid off. Is it possible to turn it off in options?
Orda Khan
04-01-2003, 15:46
Quote[/b] (TosaInu @ April 01 2003,08:17)]Hello Captain Fishpants,
That valour gaining during battle is something many MP players want to get rid off. Is it possible to turn it off in options?
Oh no......I thought that valour gain during battle had been removed in VI??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Plus I really don't expect much from a 12 man unit in MP
....Orda
Ask RageStorm for a 103 Orda. Those 12 men ninjas are very dangerous.
Quote[/b] (Captain Fishpants @ April 01 2003,08:02)]I should also have added that they're impetuous little devils...
In playtesting my favourite way of using them was to sneak them through the woods on a flank and then fall on some poor unsuspecting peasants or other weaklings. The result would usually be the complete disruption of any enemy as his men struggled to escape from the loonies attacking them At the end of the battle the Berserkers who remained had usually managed to gain substantial amounts of valour too
MikeB ~ CA
His playtesting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
God, I want to be him for ... 5 minutes, and I'll never ... never ... hmmm, have bad thoughts? ...
To Orda:
Question: I never played in MP, but why do you want to remove the valour gain during battle?
ErikJansen
04-01-2003, 18:42
Sounds like Berserkers will take over from Hashishin as my faves, or at least compliment them some http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
longjohn2
04-02-2003, 00:40
Valour gain in MP battles has been turned off, as vociferously requested in the MP forum, but still happens in the campaign game.
Mithrandir
04-02-2003, 00:45
Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ April 01 2003,17:40)]Valour gain in MP battles has been turned off, as vociferously requested in the MP forum, but still happens in the campaign game.
yay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Thanks.
PF : Valour gain online is an unbalancing factor, Cav would gain much valour quickly, thus turning a V0 into a V2 in the end, much more powerful, though other units (inf. etc.) wouldn't gain valour as quickly, thus not upgrading,though they need it more than the cav which was already (too ?) powerful.
Personally I dont really have a prob with i since I'm grown accustomed to it...Should be nice though...
ErikJansen
04-02-2003, 00:56
No more v4 Alan router chasers on me then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Again, why do you want to get rid in MP of the valour gain during battle?
Orda Khan
04-02-2003, 10:44
Quote[/b] (TosaInu @ April 01 2003,09:03)]Ask RageStorm for a 103 Orda. Those 12 men ninjas are very dangerous.
Pr Fire....Valour gain during battle makes for an unbalanced game. Units such as Lancers, from v0 or v1 can end up on v3, down to 6 men and rout entire units. Plus I look at it this way, If I am in a trained 40 man unit, as the battle goes on the only thing I get is more weary. By fighting the enemy and our unit being depleted, how then do we become more efficient than at the start of battle?
.......Orda
OOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhh Yes I remember those http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
But Tosa, they were Ninja, who could conceal themselves.
Great Longjohn, thanks :-).
Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ April 02 2003,00:40)]Valour gain in MP battles has been turned off, as vociferously requested in the MP forum, but still happens in the campaign game.
mmmmmm nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
CBR
A historical view written by Snorri Sturlason in the Heimskringla at aprox. 1225 A.D
(gathered from the mouths of storytellers)
on the other hand, his men rushed forwards without armour,
were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong
as bears or wild bulls, and killed people at a blow, but neither
fire nor iron told upon themselves. These were called Berserker.
Swoosh So
04-02-2003, 12:33
Nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Swoosh So
04-02-2003, 12:34
hehe nice one longjohn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif thanks for listening to us old samurai/geisha types http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] (Orda Khan @ April 02 2003,03:44)]
Quote[/b] (TosaInu @ April 01 2003,09:03)]Ask RageStorm for a 103 Orda. Those 12 men ninjas are very dangerous.
Pr Fire....Valour gain during battle makes for an unbalanced game. Units such as Lancers, from v0 or v1 can end up on v3, down to 6 men and rout entire units. Plus I look at it this way, If I am in a trained 40 man unit, as the battle goes on the only thing I get is more weary. By fighting the enemy and our unit being depleted, how then do we become more efficient than at the start of battle?
.......Orda
OOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhh Yes I remember those http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
But Tosa, they were Ninja, who could conceal themselves.
Thx, Orda ... I was a bit confused ...
Div Hunter
04-04-2003, 01:56
I can understand that a unit would not become more efficient but they could be alot scarier to other units of men if they just butchered their buddies.
Kongamato
04-04-2003, 07:13
Div, the loss of a certain % of a unit's population causes morale to go down.
Div Hunter
04-04-2003, 08:54
But does it decrease the morale of other units in the area? Hmmm can't remember but then I don't play multi that much so I'm not too fussed.
Kongamato
04-04-2003, 09:31
Not directly, but if the attacking unit plows through the defending unit next to a unit, the unit might become worried about its flanks.
Routing units near another unit causes great morale penalties.
I believe that Crandaeolon posted the morale modifiers in the Barracks under the "Good Ronins" thread. Read up.
Hakonarson:
Seriously - they were NEVER deployed as any sort of unit on the battlefield. Indeed they were positively discouraged, since they were individuals and one person going berserk would leave a hole in the shieldwall.
that is not quite rigth, because the beserkers were never used with "normal" viking warriors, they were used shock troops and a first contact unit. They were sent forward, where they fougth to the point they went berserk and caused havoc. then the berserkers fainted, because of the numerous wounds and the physical strain they experienced. then were the regualars sent in to deal with the rest of the front line. The usual tactic to deal with the berserkers were to use archers and/or nets when the berserkers fainted, they threw a net over them and bound them or killed them. effective when it worked out... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Hakonarson
04-14-2003, 03:15
Smakz can you post me a source for that?
To teh guy who asked about Berserkers being tax collectors - IIRC the best source is Egil's Saga - most of the berserk episodes in there are in small battles against rebellious folk who refuse to pay their taxes
And the rest of the instances are personal feuds.
as sigurd says:
A historical view written by Snorri Sturlason in the Heimskringla at aprox. 1225 A.D
(gathered from the mouths of storytellers)
on the other hand, his men rushed forwards without armour,
were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong
as bears or wild bulls, and killed people at a blow, but neither
fire nor iron told upon themselves. These were called Berserker.
now i am not telling you that you is wrong that they were tax collectors, but they also fought as stated over. As you said before, they were a liability in combat but also a very effective weapon used properly. They were expendable, because most people didn't like them and they wouldn't miss them. They were also members of an Odin-cult, that were seen by the kings as a danger to them and the security of the land. Better to recruit them and deplet their numbers on the battlefield, to secure the homelands and take on the enemy. Also the enemy thought when they saw that the opposing force had berserkers, it was a important psychological weapon.
This turned into a long post, whew http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif i got to back to work, but i have to say that it's good to see that there are people from other countries who takes interest in my land past... Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Hakonarson
04-14-2003, 05:07
As you say Snorri is writing in the 13th century about somethign that was already legendary - there were certainly no berserkers left in his time.
Viking and Leidang armies are a perenial favourite of ancient wargamers - that is those who play the pre-gunpowder era rather than those of grey hair.......although there's plenty who are both
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.