New found respect for the axe men of the north.

[LeeJackson]

After recently playing a Danish and Polish campaign I have a new found respect for the woodsmen and Vikings. Constantly these units would devastate the enemy and cause them to route. With a high valor general leading them there charges seem to make the enemy route quickly sometimes almost immediately.

Though after awhile they do get out teched but in the beginning of the game (early period) I think they are about the best units avilable. I have even had Vikings devastate units of feudal sergeants.

This being said I can not wait for the Viking Expansion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kongamato]

Gah

Cut Trees Down

Gah

[hoom]

They certainly can get some huge kills on the charge http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I lost most of an elite 80 unit kataphracktoi unit including my general to reinforcement woodsmen attacking down a steep hill into the flank of my kats who were already engaged with what I thought were better enemy.
The rest of my army was too spread out chasing down the rout to come to aid...

I've seen vikings chop down half units just from the charge.
But I've also seen many units of vikings get devastated by a single unit of nubian spears who I assumed would be no trouble so didn't bother flanking.

[Heraclius]

Well I've actually never had any success using woodsmen. I've just found them to be hyped up peasants with axes. Anyone have advice for how to use them? Vikings on the other hand are awesome. Even late in my Dane games they tend to be the core of my army.

[Kongamato]

Woodsmen would work as excellent expendables, but their low morale means that they need to be used carefully.

How I would use them:

In an army of basically elite/semi-elite troops, march everybody up to the enemy and halt at about 10-15 meters away. The Woodsmen should be stretched into thin, wide lines. Charge them at your enemy's battle line. Their Irresistible Charge and attack will do good damage to the enemy line before they inevitably rout. Hopefully, the routing will not affect your battle line.

Also, you could use cavalry units like Mounted Crossbowmen to provide the rearguard for the Woodsmen. This tandem could be positioned far enough away from the enemy as to not affect the battle line with their routing. The Mo'X can also get away scot-free.

Do I have to remind you not to do this against Cavalry? I dont think I need to.

Woodsmen, Peasants, Fanatics, Ghazis... IMO These men do not need to see the end of the battle. I see them as units that will, pound-for-pound, lose almost every battle. However, they have redeeming qualities. With good attack and charge values, these guys can do damage to more disciplined troops before they eventually rout.

I will now test my theories on their use. I will describe my results here later.

[Kongamato]

Well, after testing I found that against spears, charging Woodsmen would do great damage if they kept in the fight. This requires support, to be provided by Mounted Crossbowmen or other cavalry. Enemy units that have been subject to an expendable inf charge wind up tired and depleted. The cheapness of the Woodsmen provides for money to be spent on other military units, giving them good quality.

[LeeJackson]

Woodsmen really need to take advantage of their great charge. Make sure they charge into the enemy and try to get them on a hill.

Their low moral is a problem, but if you can stick with a few star general they can be quite devastating.

[rasoforos]

This thread reminds me of the 'elite woodsment +1' and why they lost against the barangian guard' thread http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


I have respect for the vikings as well. Isaw something surprising this round. I play with HRE high era and i decided not to annoy the Danes. Surpriingly they did not attack me either. The year is aproximatelly 1330 and the Danes occupy the whole skandivabia , most of baltic , northern europe , britain , half of france , most of spain , and part of north africa. Well i guess after getting their ass kicked in 30 or so campaigns they finally learnt how to fight properly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I m so glad i dont want to hit em http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Heraclius]

rasoforos, are you playing with the WesW medmod? Because in all my regular MTW games the Danes just sit around in Denmark, sometimes launching half-hearted attacks into Sweden or futiley attacking France or Germany, generally choosing the more powerful kingdom for their folly.
But in my current Wes mod campaign they taken over the Baltic, most of France, all of Germany and northern England.

[solypsist]

I've had some good luck using woodsmen as flank threatening reinforcements. In campaigns they've done a decent job defending against the Mongol Horde, and after a few victories their morale and valor increases and they can eventually take down weakened heavy Mongol cav.

[econ21]

I inherited a Polish campaign from LeeJackson and initially was keen on woodsmen but then I relegated them to garrison duty (low support costs). They are good flankers when used as Kongamato describes but FMAA are more robust in the long run (mail armour in this game is a very big deal).

One other advantage woodsmen have is a high AP attack - I was fighting a very high valour kataphract General with spears and he was unkillable. When the woodsmen charged in from the rear, he eventually fell.

Vikings are a different kettle of fish - essentially a substitute for FMAA with an added AP benefit.

[Brutal DLX]

Well, for me, the key to using woodsmen is that you have to make sure they don't get attacked themselves because they really have no defensive strength at all, along with a low morale. If they get attacked or shot upon, the unit is wasted. So keep them out of harm's way until every enemy unit is engaged, then use them to charge into the rear or flank of enemy units.
Another good use is to hide them in the woods und ambush any cavalry that's passing through. They will probably not win, but decimate the knights for sure, and that's always a bonus.

[LeeJackson]

I agree with you Simon that woodsmen get teched out after awhile, but at the beginning of the game they are great. As you no doubt saw they were the backbone of my army I used to conquer part of Russia

Brutal DLX is right. You can’t let your woodsmen stand there. They need to be charging/attacking the whole time. And since they are fast they are relatively easy to use for flanking maneuvers.

[Praylak]

I've used Vikings many times, but something different took place here a while back. A few campaigns ago I was playing the Danes and I had experienced an epitome with vikings. Now this may be old news to some, but I always knew they were good attackers, but I would experience sometimes heavier than desired casulties with them. Of course they are not heavily armoured, so I expected it. Then one day I was reading the description while building more units, and the thought accured to me when I read about the Viking shield wall.

Generally I leave them on engage at will, like most attacking units, but in many circumstances I have been setting them to hold formation for the entire battle, and only releasing them on engage when the unit they are fighting routs. The results, under careful observation have been amazing to me. They take a little longer to kill things, but now most of them survive. Obviously the defence bonus for holding formation works, but since they still have a decent attack value, with the AP, they do well and in the end kill thier opponent and survive.

Does anyone else use this, or am I just slow?

[desdichado]

Praylak,

I tried the same thing when i first played Danes. Not having strat guide - still don't I figured the description talking about their shield wall was literal and kept them on hold position. I lost a few battles and decided against this option.

however I was still a noob so more likely lost because of incompetence.

Still what you describe makes sense but once you tech up you should keep vikings as (cheap) flankers and keep their attack value as high as possible (ie. on engage at will) imho.

I'll have to give it a go at some point - maybe I was onto something and didn't realise. Thanks for having the patience to fully test it unlike myself http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[rasoforos]

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ April 05 2003,21:43)]rasoforos, are you playing with the WesW medmod? Because in all my regular MTW games the Danes just sit around in Denmark, sometimes launching half-hearted attacks into Sweden or futiley attacking France or Germany, generally choosing the more powerful kingdom for their folly.
But in my current Wes mod campaign they taken over the Baltic, most of France, all of Germany and northern England.
heraclius i dont play with a mod. Its pure clear MTW. The Danes did not attack me , conquered sweden and the baltic and then crushed the english and took much of northern europe and spain. Moreover it seems they are the ONLY MTW faction that used its ships correctly ( they made tonns of them , spreded them nicelly , and didnt proceede on suicidical attacks). I ve played about 25-30 campaigns up to now and never seen this before as well. If someone tells me how to take a screenshot i can show you.

[LeeJackson]

hit f2 to take a screen shot. Then you will have to go into your total war file and look for the TGA folder. The screen shot is there. You will need a TGA viewer (i believe the org has one for dl) or Photoshop (or smilar progarm) to open it. Its a big file 1 to 2 megs if I rmember correctly so you will need to save it as a gif or jpeg to post it. I have heard gifs look better.

For the rest of you, I have never used hold formation. Is it useful and what circumstance should it be used in?

[desdichado]

LeeJackson,

From what I have read in the org. hold formation gives +2 defense, -2 attack, so good when you want your spear wall to survive but not necessarily do much damage.

I only ever use this for spear troops although i might have to try it for vikings/ghazi??

[Brutal DLX]

Praylak, you are right about that, I use Vikings in hold formation 90% of the time. Vikings are a really great unit, with armour piercing and high morale. If they are available, they are always part of my armies. You know, true style never dies... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Praylak]

Glad to know others have seen the light. I was beginning to wonder about myself. Well it all makes sense if you understand the concept. When a unit is engaged at will, it's formation eventually becomes disorganized, as we all know. This allows for others to strike at the flanks of individual men, resulting perhaps in a combat bonus. So while your vikings are kiling well, they could be loosing guys just as well.

Some players focus on winning the battle, and deal with the costs of replenishing afterward. I always strive to win and survive with minimal casulties if for nothing else, to retain a units valour. Anything with high level valour is better then it was, but a high valour viking is a meatgrinder of death. Best I have had was level 6 and they were a serious murdering machine. Vargaian Guards, fear this. I've also experienced better success using this method with Futuwwa's and Ottoman Infantry. I'll have to try Ghazi's like this, god knows they need the help.

Well, if that has sparked your interest, check this next one out. I've been really reluctant about posting about it, as you feel like an idiot when you think you've discovered gold and it turns out to be painted rock.

Don't want to get too far off subject, but try this in your next battle if you haven't yet already. It's a cavalry tactic so you'll need one. Specificly something that is fairly fast and not very tired. Quite tired is fine. When your enemy's army routs, send them after the largest surviving unit. Send the cavalry after them. BUT, instead of clicking on the unit running away, hold formation, click ahead of them so that thier direction will run through the unit. Try to get your cavalry to run through thier rear.
Did I explain that right?

The effect of course is awesome, and the cavalry simply mows through them, dropping guys like straws in a hurricane. Instead of breaking formation, and enaging men individually, the cavalry are as one, and literally drive through the formation of men, dropping them instanly. You can take a whole unit of routing men down in one pass. Seen it done it. Takes about 2 seconds to plow through. Yeah, it might be cheesy, but it sure is fun.

EDIT: Just wanted to add, although knights have a good charge, they are not good for this tactic as they become impetous, break the formation and engage units. Use something diciplined or any cavalry that actually follwows orders. Ie: Steppe cavalry, Mounted sergents, hell even mounted crossbowmen.

[Hakonarson]

I tried the single line of woodsmen in front of het whole army last night & it worked rather well I thought - of course 48 of the woodsmen weer killed, but they killed 80 themselves - mostly peasants I think (the enemy was a small crusade with 2 peasant units in the front line) - and lasted a reasonable time given there was also a small unit of Mts Seargeants fightign them and some archers shooting at them.

Must try the Viking shield wall next http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[cugel]

OMG Not Another "elite woodsmen" thread http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

"try this in your next battle if you haven't yet already. . . . When your enemy's army routs, send them after the largest surviving unit. Send the cavalry after them. BUT, instead of clicking on the unit running away, hold formation, click ahead of them so that thier direction will run through the unit. Try to get your cavalry to run through thier rear.
Did I explain that right?

The effect of course is awesome, and the cavalry simply mows through them, dropping guys like straws in a hurricane. Instead of breaking formation, and enaging men individually, the cavalry are as one, and literally drive through the formation of men, dropping them instanly. You can take a whole unit of routing men down in one pass. Seen it done it. Takes about 2 seconds to plow through. Yeah, it might be cheesy, but it sure is fun.
"

I've done this for some time, but I recently learned that the attacking unit doesn't get the charge bonus unless you click on the enemy unit If you are attacking a unit and are intercepted by another enemy unit before you get there, you loose the charge bonus This means that the tactic works best on routing enemies - units that are charged by cavalry normally take a morale penalty (it's a hefty -8 if charged from the rear, I think). This is why they often break. Using the tactic you describe won't break units (but I sometimes charge with cavalry an enemy that is already engaged with another of my units - click on a point behind the enemy unit and aim to simply ride over the end portion of his line. This sometimes works, but you have to be careful not to get your cavalry heavily engaged with spear or pikemen
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif

[Hakonarson]

Cugel read again - he was refering to attcking ROUTING units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Heh. Yes, the elite woodsmen thread was a good one. I recall several veterans fell for it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Tigger]

Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ April 07 2003,22:34)]
Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ April 05 2003,21:43)]rasoforos, are you playing with the WesW medmod? Because in all my regular MTW games the Danes just sit around in Denmark, sometimes launching half-hearted attacks into Sweden or futiley attacking France or Germany, generally choosing the more powerful kingdom for their folly.
But in my current Wes mod campaign they taken over the Baltic, most of France, all of Germany and northern England.
heraclius i dont play with a mod. Its pure clear MTW. The Danes did not attack me , conquered sweden and the baltic and then crushed the english and took much of northern europe and spain. Moreover it seems they are the ONLY MTW faction that used its ships correctly ( they made tonns of them , spreded them nicelly , and didnt proceede on suicidical attacks). I ve played about 25-30 campaigns up to now and never seen this before as well. If someone tells me how to take a screenshot i can show you.
I am running the Wes Mod and find that the Danes invariably do extremely well and I always end up fighting them alone at the end of a campaign

[Kongamato]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ April 08 2003,18:33)]I tried the single line of woodsmen in front of het whole army last night & it worked rather well I thought - of course 48 of the woodsmen weer killed, but they killed 80 themselves - mostly peasants I think (the enemy was a small crusade with 2 peasant units in the front line)
Ahh, my point exactly on the use of Woodsmen.

Expendables are Invaluable.

Gah Cut Trees Down Gah

[ShadesPanther]

The other day i fought a guy who was using Vikings in MP, I had jannisaries and they fought very well greatly reducing my jannisaries numbers ( especially the JHI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif )

[Morten viking]

I haven't tried vikings in hot climate, but imagine they would do well in Africa etc. due to their light armor. Anyone been there and done that and maybe got the T-shirt?

MV

[ShadesPanther]

yes as the byzans i hire them as mercs to destroy the egyptians because
1. They tear them apart
2. The last a Long time
3. they just look cool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Morten viking]

Quote[/b] (ShadesPanther @ April 12 2003,17:46)]yes as the byzans i hire them as mercs to destroy the egyptians because
1. They tear them apart
2. The last a Long time
3. they just look cool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
I bet the Bysantine Emperor once said the same

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Morten viking]

I did some testing with the vikings last night under WEsW med mod v1.71. I was pitting one unit of FMAA's against a unit of vikings. The ground was flat and no extras for any unit. I was defending and tried to both counterattack and just defend (holding my ground) with "engage at will" and "hold formation" The vikings won 3 out of 4 battles. The only time they lost was when I just left them standing there and let the FMAA's charge in. I upped the opposition a bit and sent in a unit of CMAA's. They lost too Just one battle, but the killratio was actually better than against the FMAA's. This time I just charged the CMAA unit. In the end I didn't see any difference regarding using shield wall or not. I had a few battles with various foot knights too. The vikings lost every time, but the knights paid a heavy price. Considering the price of vikings and knights, the trade off was quite good. With extras the vikings should be a match of just about anything moving on two feet

MV

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (LeeJackson @ April 04 2003,20:54)]After recently playing a Danish and Polish campaign I have a new found respect for the woodsmen and Vikings. Constantly these units would devastate the enemy and cause them to route. With a high valor general leading them there charges seem to make the enemy route quickly sometimes almost immediately.

Though after awhile they do get out teched but in the beginning of the game (early period) I think they are about the best units avilable. I have even had Vikings devastate units of feudal sergeants.

This being said I can not wait for the Viking Expansion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Lol, feudal sergeants are one of the weakest units; even spearmen beat them ...

[Michael the Great]

Indeed,even HOBILARS http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Trully ridiculous

[Shahed]

I always thought Almohad Urban Militia were the best early infantry. Better morale than byzantine olive mongers.

[Asmodeus]

I started a new Dane campaign last night after not playing MTW for a few weeks (too much work, socialising and other games&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. Anyway as you know, early on you have to take Sweden and Norway as quickly as you can.

The Swedes retreated into Norway without a fight as usual, so fine I occupy Sweden and build up some more Vikings to attack Norway. I too read the unit description to refresh my memory and also noticed the subtle suggestion of the Shield Wall tactic - not something i have not tried before.

Anyway I was up against 6 units of angry Norwegian Vikings in the mountains - so I brought along 3 units of archers to weaken them a little, my King and about 4 units of Vikings. As soon as my archers opened up on them the enemy advanced down the mountain and then charged, this caused slight problems as forgot how fast they can run Some of my archers couldnt retreat quick enough through my infantry line and got slaughtered. I had all my Vikings on Hold Formation and the melee began in earnest. At first it was pretty even, i managed to push the odds in my favour by firing volleys of arrows into the enemy rearmost units (I hate friendly fire). But after a few minutes fighting it was clear that although the enemy was inflicting casualties he was certainly taking more himself. Then when his moral began to falter and his general came into the fray I charged the flank with my King to rout them.

However if he had sent all of his units at once I would have had problems with his numerical advantage (morale being roughly even). But on the whole I think the Shield Wall is a good tactic and makes a very effective fighting machine that can also defend and is fairly resilient to missile file. Considering they are cheap, available right at the start and are very effective well into the later part of game - i think they are Fab

I havent used Woodsmen much though, I may give them a try tonight. I should imagine they are really just mopper-uppers or flank-bashers.