Enveloping Tactic

[Crimson Castle]

Hello,

I've been fighting against the Alomond faction for awhile. They use their militia units and thrash my spearmen and swordmen units to bits.

I tried flanking them and using Hannibal's tactics of enveloping them from the side flanks - see the Battle of Cannae. But being hit from the rear doesn't seem to worry the muslims, they take it in their stride and mow down my front men before reversing and killing the pesky enemies attacking their rear.

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/cannae.html

I hope the next patch increases the vulnerability of troops being hit from the flanks and the rear.

[lonewolf371]

It's already a pretty large responsibility, yet heavy units such as Almohad Urban Militia can wade through flank attacks, especially with High valour. I haven't tested it but most likely a unit of Gothic Knights would hold out against two units of Lancers when the Lancers were attacking the Goths from both sides. Heavy units' weaknesses are to arrows, try using those instead of pole-arms and swordsmen.

[Nowake]

I think it's a problem with valour ... maybe your general is not so high rnaked as his ...

Plus, try forming the center (the formation that has to hold its ground) with spearmen, or something like that ... They usually make less casualties, but have a bigger endurance, thabks to their formation and shields. You really have to experiment a keen eye untill those kind of maneuvres will succed. I becoming an expert http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif and all I can say is that timming is crucial; wait until the enemy unit it's fully engaged, even if your men support heavy looses. And take care not to be outflanked yourself.


In order for Cannae to happend, Hannibal needed a very stupid enemy general ... found in the person of the roman butcher Varro http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Papewaio]

Flank and rear attacks decrease morale... however that is not going to do much if the troops you surround are super troops like the basic AUM. Early in the game they are the best troops pound for pound.

Think of it this way try surrounding British Red Coats or Imperial Romans in tortise formation, it ain't going to do much without some heavy duty missile support.

For best results attack the AUM at the same time period attack from the front with Feudal Sergeants and from the sides with Militia Sergeants and the back with Mounted Sergeants.

[Nowake]

Sorry, but Feudal Sergeants are crap ... Even spearman are better, much more better ...

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]I hope the next patch increases the vulnerability of troops being hit from the flanks and the rear.

Forgive my blunt speech, but... Hell no

Here are the current 1.1 combat modifiers for your perusal (a copy-paste from totalwar.com), I marked the relevant ones with asterisks.

COMBAT MODIFIERS

MORALE

States

Impetuous: 10+
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less then -6 (Cran's note: the rout point is -16. Units will keep routing until their morale rises above -6.)

Negative

Loose Formation: -2
Outnumbered 2 to 1: -4 (see below)
Outnumbered 3 to 1: -12 (depends on quality of troop, elite only afraid of elite, etc.)
*One flank threatened: -2
*Two flanks threatened: -6
*Charged in flank: -4
*Charged in flank by cavalry: -6
Charged by unit hidden in forest: -8
General's death (during the first few seconds): -8
After the General's death: -2 (for the rest of the battle)
Routing Friends: Up to -12
10% of unit is dead: -2
50% of unit is dead: -8
80% of unit is dead: -12
Taking missle fire: -2 (-4 if weapons cause fear)
Unit is Very Tired: -2
Unit is Exhausted: -6
Unit is completely exhausted: -8
*Losing: Up to -8 (up to -14 if losing to cavalry)

Positive

*Protected Flanks: +4
No retreat possible (usually castle sieges): +8
No enemies around: +4
Enemies Routing: Up to +8
Uphill Position: +2
*Winning: Up to +6
Impetuous Charge: +4 (when Knights charge automatically)
Outnumber Enemy 3 to 1: +4
General in unit: +2
Close proximity to general: +1 morale per star
Far away from general: +1 morale per 2 stars

COMBAT

Formations

+3 atk, -3 def for wedge formation
+2 def, -2 atk for hold formation

Spear/pikes

+1 per rank to def (up to 2 for spear, 4 for pike)
+1 per 2 ranks to atk
+1 per rank to atk when charging
No rank bonuses in forests (may be bugged)

Terrain

+1 atk, +1 def for camels in desert
-2 atk, -2 def for cavalry in forests
Bonus to atk for being uphill (depends on height)
Penalty to def for being downhill (depends on height)

Fear of camels

+4 def for camels against horses
+2 atk for camels against horses

Positional

*+5 atk for flank attack
*+7 for rear
*+2 for charging into flank/rear
*+6 to atk when 'pushing back' the enemy
*-5 def when squeezed too tight

Exhaustion

-2 atk when quite tired
-3 atk, -1 def very tired
-4 atk, -2 def exhausted
-6 atk, -3 def totally exhausted

Routing

+4 atk against routing enemies
-8 def if routing
----------------------------------------

As ya can see, quite a few of those are applied in a flanking/rear attack situation. Cavalry also get the beefier bonuses, so the preferable hammer/anvil combo is some good holding units like spears or swords in hold/hold as the anvil and cavalry as the hammer.

If you have problems with AUMs chopping up your anvil unit before the hammer hits them, try to improve the timing of the sandwiching maneuver. Also be sure that you're lining up the hammer unit before attacking from the rear, they're much more effective when all men in the hammer hit at the same time. When charging into the flanks, try wedge formation.

And finally, Feudal Sergeants are much better than ordinary Spearmen. I can't dig up their combat stats right now, but they have better morale and most likely better combat stats too.

[CBR]

Yes flank/rear attacks are already working fine IMO.

Maybe the Almohads had a super general giving lots of bonuses to his troops.

Feudal sergeants have better morale (+2) and +1 attack compared to Spearmen.

CBR

[baz]

well the flanking and rear attack already have substacial values (see crans post*) if 2 armies that are fairly equal in florin cost fight one another then flanking will decide the battle .. however, maybe the almos have a more expensive range of units 2 v0 units of swords cannot be expected to beat a far superior v4 AUM.

[Lord Of Storms]

Quote[/b] (Alita @ April 19 2003,23:44)]Hello,

I've been fighting against the Alomond faction for awhile.
I think those guys are nuts?