View Full Version : about armour upgrades...
Asmodeus
04-17-2003, 15:22
Firstly if you upgrade the armour of a unit (e.g. Spearman) does it have any effect on his movement? Does heavy armour slow them down?
Secondly if you upgrade the armour of a unit that doesnt normally wear much or any armour, say Peasants or Gallowglasses, do they suffer from the heat in deserts like knights do?
Firstly if you upgrade the armour of a unit (e.g. Spearman) does it have any effect on his movement? Does heavy armour slow them down?
As far as I know, they still march at same speed. Would be good that they are slowed down, but they are not, or at least, not noticeably.
Secondly if you upgrade the armour of a unit that doesnt normally wear much or any armour, say Peasants or Gallowglasses, do they suffer from the heat in deserts like knights do?
Yes. Upgrade Ghazi and you will see they get tired faster. Remember too that upgrade valor also upgrade defense, which also bring up armor. but DOESN'T bring up armor.
Annie
Asmodeus
04-17-2003, 16:02
Ok thankyou Annie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ April 17 2003,09:26)]Yes. Upgrade Ghazi and you will see they get tired faster. Remember too that upgrade valor also upgrade defense, which also bring up armor.
Are you sure about this? I don't think valor upgrades armor. Doesn't really make sense either. Upping armor will inherently increase defense, but upping defense shouldn't inherently increase armor.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
04-17-2003, 16:32
Hum...
2 different stats; defense for H2h. And armor for missile. As far as I know, no amount of armor and / or defense change the speed of units.
As far as I know, ARMOR is the critical factor to get tired in difficult condition (desert, winter...).
Armor upgrades boosts bth Armor and Defense.
Valor upgrade only upgrade Defense and not Armor.
That's what I see using F1, but it might be a bug. So, eventually, I don't know. But I would be interested in a reply.
Louis,
Crandaeolon
04-17-2003, 18:09
Valour upgrade: Unit cost +70%, +1 to attack, +1 to defense, +2 to morale.
Weapon upgrade: Unit cost +33%, +1 to attack.
Armour upgrade: Unit cost +35%, +1 to defense, +1 to armour.
AFAIK, movement rates are unaffected by armour rating but a higher armour rating makes units tire faster.
My mistake: correction made about upgrade. Adding defense through adding valor doesn't add to armor.
Annie
As I understand:
- Armour won't effect the speed.
- Amour will effect the rate of fatigue on the battle field (everywhere, not just in the hot desert).
- Armour primary use is to withstand the attack from both missile and hand weapon. On other words, it's factored in as defense value.
- Weapon with AP (armour piercing) capability reduce the armour factor of the target. AP missiles reduce the armour factor according to the projectile stats. Hand weapon: I am not sure by how much. Will it totally negate armour factor or just reduce it like missile does.
Actually, melee armor-piercing properties do not affect the targets armor value at all. It would make no sense because the armor value by itself is not used in any melee combat calculations. Only attack and defense are. Instead, it adds a bonus to the attackers attack value.
Starting at armor level 3, the attacker gets +1. Against cavalry, it starts at armor level 4 since the horse armor is factored in differently. The bonus is suppose to be greater as the armor level is higher, but I'm not sure of the exact formula.
The old pre-patch formula was:
Attack bonus = (target armor - 2) / 2
Although one of the devs said they have changed it to be more effective in the patch. He had said that it were changed so that the attack bonus would start with one armor level lower than before (although there may have been other changes but I have no idea) so I'm guessing the new formula could be:
Attack bonus = (target armor - 1) /2
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
04-18-2003, 04:12
Quote[/b] (pdoan8 @ April 17 2003,18:13)]- Armour primary use is to withstand the attack from both missile and hand weapon. On other words, it's factored in as defense value.
I don't think so.
Armor and defense are two different stats. Armor protect vs missile. Defense vs h2h.
The 'Armor' upgrade gives +1 to both. The Valor upgrade gives +1 to defense only (and attack and +2 morale) and not to Armor.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Louis,
Yes my understanding is attack bonus = (target armor -1)/2. I had forgotten about the cav being done differently. The contribution of the horse and the shield are both subtracted out of the target armor before making the calculation. Keep in mind that attack bonus is an integer, so fractional values are truncated which means you only see an increase to the bonus on odd values of armor.
Now, I'm getting what I need.
Attack bonus = (target armour -1)/2 being the effect of AP weapon. So, AP weapon is best used against heavily armoured units. Attacking an unit with 9 armour rating would gives the attacker 4 att bonus. It's a huge bonus.
The thing that still confuse me is the protection of armour. Besides providing protection against regular missiles, how does it protect the soldier in melee? So if I have:
- Soldier 1: 3 att, 6 def, 2 armour (non-AP weapon, no shield).
melee with
- Soldier 2: 3 att, 2 def, 6 armour (non-AP weapon, no shield).
Which soldier will be better in melee? (fatigue option is off so neither soldier would get tired from the amount of armour).
As stated previously, armor is not part of any melee calculations (except of course, the AP bonus). Therefore, the one with 6 defense and 2 armor will fare a whole lot better in melee combat than the 2 defense 6 armor.
You can try and think of it this way: the armor's defensive value is already factored into the defense stat. So the unit with 6 defense and 2 armor has a "base" defense of 4. The unit with 2 defense and 6 armor has a "base" defense of -4.
OK. Thanks. All clear now.
Armour: used for calculating AP bonus and used as def value against missile.
Defense: used for melee combat.
I will run a few tests when I get home. There are few few units that I think it would be interesting to test
- Billmen vs Halbardier.
- Militia Sergeant vs Halbardier.
- JHI vs CFK (with 40-men and 60-men size).
- JHI vs VG.
- Viking vs Halbardier.
- Gallow vs Abyssinian Guard.
- Gallow vs Nizari or Ghazi (only morale can save them from the Gallow's sword)
- Abyssinian Guard vs Nizari or Ghazi.
It's gonna be fun.
Crandaeolon
04-18-2003, 11:48
Place your bets, comrades http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
All these guesses are purely theoretical, assuming that both units are worth roughly equal florins, and also that valour upgrades would take priority.
- Billmen vs Halbardier.
Billmen will win. IIRC, Halbs have heavier armour and lower morale. Won't be a decisive victory, though.
- Militia Sergeant vs Halbardier.
Assuming equal florins, Mil Sarges will wipe the floor with halbs.
- JHI vs CFK (with 40-men and 60-men size).
Hmm... gah. Hard to tell, I don't have a good feel for CFK. Unit size is an advantage for the Janissaries. It will be a very even battle, but the JHI will probably win with heavy losses. Edit: removed "JHI have very heavy armour", which is simply not true. Thanks Kraxis.
- JHI vs VG.
Varangs should win quite decisively.
- Viking vs Halbardier.
Vikings should win.
- Gallow vs Abyssinian Guard.
Gallows are another unit I practically never use... assuming that the Gallows get a couple of valour upgrades to compensate low morale, they'll probably win. In any case it will be a slaughter with lots of losses on the winning side.
- Gallow vs Nizari or Ghazi (only morale can save them from the Gallow's sword)
Another even matchup... Nizari have bows, but in pure melee the Gallows will probably win with heavy losses. Dunno about Ghazi... Gallows will probably win that too if their morale holds.
- Abyssinian Guard vs Nizari or Ghazi.
More shock against shock. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif No winner in this one, Ghazis will probably win with a very small margin, but like in all shock vs shock instances, the "winning" unit will probably be next to worthless for the rest of the battle.
Ok here goes my bets.
Bills vs Halbs: Bills due to the same reasons as Crand.
Militia Sergeants vs Halbs: This is a little tougher, but I think the MS will win as they would be V1 and their morale should win it for them.
JHI vs CFK: JHI on this one, they have the numbers and they don't suffer very much from AP (Armour 3). Also their charge is better.
JHI vs VG: VG should win this one quite certainly.
Vikings vs Halbs: Again it comes down to Morale I think and the Vikings are much better in that department especially given the V1 for Vikings.
Gallows vs Abyssinians: Now this is intereting, the Gallows have the better att. and charge giving them a very powerful start, but the Abyssinians have much better morale, so if they can survive the charge they will most likely win. Can't say anything yet.
Gallows vs Nizaris: This time the Gallows have an enemy with an equal power on the attack but it is much worse on def. Losses will most likely be very heavy on both sides during the charge and that could spell the doom for the Gallows.
Gallows vs Ghazis: Much the same, but the Ghazis don't have the charge att. or def. of the Nizaris but they are cheaper so no Valours for the Gallows.
Abyssinians vs Nizaris or Ghazis: Another very interesting matchup... can't say much.
So now I'm off to do the testing.
Ok... Didn't have time to extensive testing.
Four fights each.
Bills vs Halbs: 2-2, this is naturally not a completely fair matchup as both units get +2 Morale for being generals, thus removing a good deal of the Bills advantage. Not once did a general die.
MS(V1) vs Halbs: 4-0, the Militia Sergeants really kicked rear quarters here, making the Halbs run when they had suffered 50% loses (against the Bills they lasted much longer).
JHI vs CFK: A tie, 2-2, but surprisingly the CFKs won their battles with 2:1 or better killrate. So don't engage those CFKs with your JHI unless you have better Valour.
JHI vs VG: 0-4, the Varangians were even so arrogant as not to charge back at the JHI... The VGs won hands down, but the JHI put up a great fight.
Vikings(V1) vs Halbs: 3-1, the Vikings really wiped the floor with the Halbs, but lost a surprising battle as in their wins they had a killrate of 2:1 to 4:1. Vikings win hands down.
Gallows vs Abyssinians: 3-1, interestingly only few men died in the initial clash, only about 3-4 of each side. The Gallows managed to stay in the battle for quite a long time but then again they were winning most of the time (which gives positive morale). Even in the battle they lost they killed more than they lost. In three out of four battles the generals were killed very fast. Again the bonus of being general helped one side, this time the Gallows, I believe they would have lost 3 battles had they not been the generals unit as they were uncertain and wawering all the time.
Gallows(V1) vs Nizaris: 3-1, the Gallows did very well, especially on the charge there they nullified the losses suffered from ranged fire. In melee they managed to keep te Nizaris on the edge all the time and even when they lost they had killed a lot more Nizaris than they had lost themselves. But again the Gallows were helped by being the generals unit. Interestingly in one fight the Nizaris fought to the last man (being the general). It looked great as he killed every man that faced him but finally he was cut down from behind (fictional but it is more interesting this way).
Gallows vs Ghazis: 4-0, the Ghazis never had a chance. They really suffered from the Gallows charge. In fact in the first battle they suffered 15 losses (including the general) from the charge and routed at once, they only caused 4 losses themselves.
Abyssinians(V1) vs Nizaris: 1-3, the Nizaris really ruled these guys. In general their ranged managed to kill 9-10 Abyssinians and the charge was in the Nizaris favour too. From then on the fight was equal until the Guards ran.
Abyssinians vs Ghazis: 3-1, but it was actually a much more equal fight as the Ghazis managed to keep their losses on par with the Abyssinians most of the time, but they suffered from the charge. Would have been 2-2 if the Ghazi general hadn't died when there was 11 men left of both sides.
Asmodeus
04-23-2003, 11:29
There is more to this than I had imagined. I certainly didnt know that increased armour increases the fatigue rate in non-desert provinces as well Thats something I should consider before i upgrade each and every unit. I just assumed unless in a desert, the more armour the better
Ok how do the shields compare with armour in the defence against arrows & melee? My original assumption was that like the Pavise shields, they were defence against arrows. But the Viking Shieldwall trick suggests that it provides a melee defence bonus as well as I suffer fewer casualties.
Any ideas?
As I told once(or twice), I have had an army with Gothic troops, which had been fully upgraded and an valour of 6-7. Say what you want, it had been really funny to seem them rout one army after another, even as they were tired they were still superior to anything, but I didn´t get to use them in the desert.
What I want to say is that I will never forget this army and that I didn´t recognise any real cons because of their very high armour except that the Gothic Knights finished off most armies before the Gothic Seargeants arrived. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
04-23-2003, 21:11
IMO, armor, the fatigue effect of armor more than offset the benefits (resisting miss) in desert or tough weather (snow).
If fighting in desert, armor 3 or more will get you tired fast.
To my knowledege, even if defense and armor are different stats, there are, at val 0, closely related, ie high def = high armor.
The only way to have a good def without high armor is with valor boosting.
In desert (or snow) you want valor not armor.
On other ground, the fatigue impact is less important, unless you know you will have a very long fight, or you play MP at 1 v 4 and will have a lot of fighting. Or then you can just rest...
Louis,
Has the relationship between armor upgrades and fatigue been tested or are people speculating here? Anecdotal evidence can be less than accurate. I myself have not noticed better armor yielding a faster fatigue rate but I haven’t scrutinized the issue either. I ask because an improvement to armor need not mean that said armor gets heavier. It could become lighter, stronger or both.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
04-23-2003, 21:43
It is very real...
I have tested it on JHI (starting with Armor 3, I think). Usually I upgrade them v0a2w0... they get very tired just by walking around. At v1a0w0, they stop frying.
Or you can go to custom game, pick up some Jinette and some lancers and watch the difference in desert...
Lancers will fry just standing there with Armor 9. Jinette can play around without too much trouble.
Louis,
Those are very good tests.
About the relationship between armor and fatigue, I don't think it really needs to be tested once again.
If you do want to satisfy yourself by doing a test then:
Just take 2 units of Spanish Jinettes, Alans, JHI or whatever else. Walk them around any terrain exactly the same milage.
You will see that the unit with the higher armor rating tires faster. Higher Armor = Faster onset of fatigue.
Makes sense, really.
ErikJansen
04-23-2003, 22:44
A most excellent thread. Well done to all who participated here, just one small thing to remember. Don't get blinded by the test results http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Well done again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Quote[/b] (Nelson @ April 23 2003,15:32)]Has the relationship between armor upgrades and fatigue been tested or are people speculating here? Anecdotal evidence can be less than accurate. I myself have not noticed better armor yielding a faster fatigue rate but I haven’t scrutinized the issue either. I ask because an improvement to armor need not mean that said armor gets heavier. It could become lighter, stronger or both.
Lets just say this. While messing around, I modded a unit to have 1000 armor. When I went to battle, it dropped to 0 stamina in about 2 seconds.
Rowan11088
04-24-2003, 01:18
well duh, that would be like carrying 3 grand pianos on your back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
eXistenZi
04-24-2003, 04:40
Newbie question but: How in the hell do you give armor upgrades to units?
TIA
Asmodeus
04-24-2003, 09:35
To upgrade/repair units move them to a province where they can normally be built (e.g. Scottish clansman can only be rebuilt/upgraded in Scotland) and that have the required buildings. While you have the unit selected click on the build units button and when the window opens, drag and drop the icon of the unit into the build queue. If the unit is damaged it will upgrade to full strength and any armour or weapon upgrades in that province will be applied to the unit. Not certain but i think that valour, morale and command upgrades may be applied too although these are less easily observed. You pay pro-rata on the number of units replaced/upgraded.
If you have a unit that has good armour but no weapon bonus, move him to a province that has weapon bonuses available and retrain him there, the armour will not be affected unless better armour is available, but the weapon bonus will be added.
This leads me to another question:
Is there a way to downgrade armour? If you have some particularly valuable units and are about to embark on a desert campaign, is there any way you can remove the armour bonus?
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
04-24-2003, 14:29
Asmodeus;
No way I know of to remove armor bonus. If there are one, let me know. I am interested.
Existenzi;
in SP campaign, you need armor building, and units train or retrain there will pick up an armor bonus (if better than current armor).
In SP campaign or MP, between units selection and your army, there are 3 'buttons' with two arrow each to change valor, weapon and armor upgrade.
Louis,
Thanks all. I'm convinced. I haven't tested anything myself since the early days of Shogun. The org saves me a lot of time
eXistenZi
04-24-2003, 16:20
Thanks for the answers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Can you retrain full units of special units (ie Clansmen) in provinces with weapon upgrades to get them?
You can only retrain units in provinces that can train the unit in the first place. Since clansmen are restricted to Scotland, no.
Asmodeus
04-25-2003, 17:03
Quote[/b] (BDC @ April 25 2003,09:09)]Can you retrain full units of special units (ie Clansmen) in provinces with weapon upgrades to get them?
Unfortunately i dont think you can. As there is no iron in Scotland you cant build the weaponsmith to upgrade them which is a pity. However certain special units can have weapon upgrades if their province does have iron - Woodsmen in Sweden for example.
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