Burn in Hell for all Eternity

[Parmenion]

If you think that you can't get excommunicated for defending your own provinces, then think again. This is what happened to me today :
Italians, Early, GA mode.
1 - I had a brief war with the Sicilians in around 1098AD which they started by sinking one of my ships (predictably). This war didn't officially end, but I did manage to attack Sicily in retribution and took it by storming the castle (I had a warning from the Pope to cease hostilities and so ended the conflict the next year).
2 - The Sicilians continuously raided from Malta onto Sicily with large armies. They managed to sink nearly all of my blockading ships and from 1104-1109 attacked me every year. Each year they were beaten back and each year my defending force got smaller and smaller. I was building urban militia to help defend Sicily, but they were about as useful as a chocolate teapot. The Sicilians remained in the Papal good books and were allies with him throughout this time.
3 - In 1110AD they attacked once more with a huge stack (where the feck did they get it from ?&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and so Lord Bohemund de Tankerville retreated into the castle to await a relief from his Doge.
4 - By 1112AD I had moved a large relief army, commanded by the Doge, from Naples into Sicily.
5 - In 1113AD the relieving army fought the invading Sicilians and defeated them, killing the King in the process. My emissary had been appealing to the Sicilian King for a ceasefire every year and was refused (predictably again).
6 - The Pope excommunicated me for my aggression against fellow Christians.................?



Now I can understand me getting the warning to chill out, but the fact of the matter is the Sicilians attacked me first by sinking my precious ship. They probably would have invaded Naples straight after that (under my control at this point). The capture of Sicily was fair play as far as I was concerned, and I stopped attacking them when I was warned to by His Holiness. So why was I excommunicated?
The only thing I can think of was that the game assumed that Sicily was once again controlled by the Sicilians, even though I was safely inside the castle eating all my piles of rations.

What makes it worse is that the year after that the Pope called for Crusades against me from the rest of the Christian nations...... aaaaaaaargggh
My own Crusade to Antioch met disaster too when the Hungarians decided to be awkward and refuse passage through their lands. This resulted in the destruction of most of the troops in the crusade (I knew I should have put a good general in there to increase the morale).
After all that I gave up.

Next time I'm playing a muslim nation so I don't have to worry about His Gimpiness the Pope.

[ShadesPanther]

Well the pope is a gimp but he isnt very smart, Attack his lands and wipe him out, take the papal states for yourself and take Rome and kill the Pope. Now burn Rome to the ground getting loads of money for you. Now make Rome rebel. Now when the pope comesback he will have to fight the rebels and will be very weak havng no good land. Rinse and repeat when he excomms you again.
You probably got excommed because he was allied to the Sicilians and also he doesnt seem to like Italy much so thats probably why.

[Parmenion]

Cool, I'll try that tomorrow morning when I get home from work. BURN, BABY, BURN



Think I'll still start again though seeing as my last game is in a complete shambles.

Will I still be able to send crusades (for the GA game) if there is no Pope?

[Shahed]

Good plan by Pantha man

You can't Crusade without the Pope.

When you play a Muslim faction and get fed up with the warmongering from the West, land your troops and take over the Papalcy's lands. Keep 2,000 troops in each province, elites, 4 - 6 missile, rest heavy cav.

Since the Pope is dead there can be no more Crusades against you as a Muslim faction. The trade can now resume, however in this world without the Papa, might is right. So keep yourself armed to deter aggresion.

[Shahed]

O

there is a thread here with the recipe for Fetucinni Alfredo:

Strategies for the Italian faction (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=4839)

Buon Apetitto

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kraxis]

When you have been warned by the Pope you are not allowed to:

Attack a province
Sink a ship
Sally out from a castle (so make damn sure you can keep the province or retreat to the next province)

You may ONLY:

Fight defensive battles both on lands and on sea. Sallying out from a castle is NOT a defensive battle. You have lost the province and you are attacking to retake it.

[Goatus Maximus]

Its been mentioned before, but when you're playing a Catholic faction, time any attack against another Catholic faction when the Pope is about to die (usually when he's in his 60's)...once he dies, any excommunications are rendered invalid and you are back in his good graces. Its a great way to settle any scores against those other Catholic factions that have attacked you

[MizuKokami]

too bad you can't leave one of your daughters in the province of the pope for several years, then have on of your spies expose him for the womanizer he is.

[Tiwaz]

Hmm... That tip about burning Rome was great, I have been losing hair on my campaigns when Pope regularily decides to make a comback forcing me to throw huge armies against him to beat him back just to repeat it again soon. I doubt there can be more annoying faction in the whole game...

[malkuth]

Actually Technically you did attack him. Its stupid but yes you did attack him. Basically any mission where the other side defends means your the attacker.

But if you have a big enough armies does it matter, what that idiot pope says?

[Tiwaz]

And there are interesting factions to play which couldn't care less about pope... Great reason to play non-catholic faction.

[Tartychops]

I'm in the middle of a Polish campaign at the moment (inspired by the King of Poland thread in the Entrance Hall), and it's been one of the damn toughest games I've played (English and Spanish got very powerful, and as I was preparing for the arrival of the Mongols in the early 1220s I thought it wiser to shift forces to attack the English - big difficult war at the moment&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Anyway, I've been excommunicated three times so far in this game, and each time I've used the same assassin to strike out and kill the dastardly Pope. I was very wary about using him the third time as it was a bit of a last-gasp gamble: happiness had really plummetted in my provinces as I'd had a few defeats and my King was not very popular at the time, less so after being excommunicated. So how blooody happy was I (and my people) after my lil assassin worked his magic again?

So ecstatic that I had to save the game and go for a lie down, that's how happy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

So if you can't attack and raze Rome to the ground.. consider sending a knife-happy assassin to to the business for you.

[The_Emperor]

Yep I had Guy of Gisborne develop 6 stars from killing the Pope... he became something of a major target every year he decided to warn me about something

My ultimate goal is to burn the Pope with an inquisitor... from what I hear it is possible and quite funny if you can pull it off

Anyone made the Pope a victim of the Inquisition?

[barocca]

BIG SPOILER BELOW

don't read unless you want excomm's to be ruined for you








Spoiler
MTW can only remember one warning per faction at a time, No player is issued multiple warnings for aggression against multiple factions, only for the first faction attacked
- remember the ten year limit for your warning though, once that runs out you will be issued a fresh warning for your first aggressive action.

what's that? you don't believe me?, oh well...

[Elwe]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ April 23 2003,13:39)]My ultimate goal is to burn the Pope with an inquisitor... from what I hear it is possible and quite funny if you can pull it off

Anyone made the Pope a victim of the Inquisition?
Aye, in my Danish campaign. The Catholic Church went through 4 Popes in 4 years... you'd think they'd learn not to keep electing Heretics and Athiests to the position. The last pope only survived simply because there was no reason for me to kill him (I'd sated my bloodlust on the previous 3 Popes). Mind you, my 5* Grand Inquisitor remained in Rome to keep an eye on the sweatiung Pontiff...

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[kataphraktoi]

I made a small tweak and managed to stop the Pope from coming back to his old territories.

He can still approve Crusades from his place in exile, in other words he' still in limbo, his bishops are still on the map and thats in spite of being wiped off the map.

Wow its great having undisputed control over Rome.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ April 24 2003,13:07)]I made a small tweak and managed to stop the Pope from coming back to his old territories.

He can still approve Crusades from his place in exile, in other words he' still in limbo, his bishops are still on the map and thats in spite of being wiped off the map.

Wow its great having undisputed control over Rome.
Somehow it makes it all too easy... and taking out the Pope is half the fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[HindSight2020]

The pope IS a pain. I agree with you there. And the game doesn't always treat the human player the same as it does the computer led factions.

But the source of the problem was that when you retreated to the castle, the Sicilians were considered by MTW to have conquered the province. (Whenever I attack a province and the enemy retreats to the castle, I have control of the province -- though no taxes accumulate until I control the castle as well.) When you brought in forces from the outside, they were effectively invading the Sicilians' province. So when you say that you were excommunicated for defending your province, you are technically wrong.

The problem is really that the Sicilians were not excommunicated for all their aggressions.

[cugel]

By far the best technique is the one already mentioned. Take Rome and off the Pope. Then burn everything to the ground, crank up the taxes to very high and pull all your troops out of the province. 100% chance of instant rebellion the next turn. With the MedMod this is even more fun, since the rebellion has swarms of teutonic knights and whatnot. The degenerate Pope will have a tough time getting back in again against the Rebels. I laughed to watch him fail twice. Of course, he eventually respawned in Smolensk for some reason, but that was so far away it didn't matter. Save the Pope for last to have a rousing good final battle.