AI conspiracy

[Tora]

Playing Italian/Expert/Early. The Golden Horde duly arrived in 1235 and swept across Russia, leaving me with Lithuania,Muscovy and all stops North-West.No problem, I thought. I had about eight spare stacks in Venice and sole possession of all coastal sea areas, (but not Deep Sea due to that peculiar bug in Early where everyone gets to build Deep Sea fleets after the Compass event except you). It's just a matter of shipping reinforcements round to the Baltic.
However when I tried to do this an English fleet would pop up in the North Sea thus blockading me from reaching the Baltic.
This didn't seem possible because the only shipyard the English had was in Wales and the barque couldn't have come from the North Atlantic, being a coastal waters ship.

This happened three years running, resulting in the whole of Russia turning from green to a nasty shade of brown.Were the two events linked by the AI?
As Grassy Knollington would say, "Coincidence? I don't think so...."

[ShadesPanther]

Yes the AI cheats

It can build ships in 1 year
It reacts to YOUR moves on the board so you cant surprise attack it
And i strongly suspect they have infinite money

You cant really do anything abut the last 2 but I modded to the ships to take 1 year and some big ones to take 2

[Heraclius]

I agree with the first two suspicions but I don't think the AI has unlimited money. Once I start to strangle their trade routes (this is in the WesW mod however) the quality and quantity of their armies starts to drop and their provinces don't increase in farmland or other buildings very much.

[ShadesPanther]

yeah but i undid the ability to build peasants and Urban milita so they had uber armies but even poland could build high quality units without trade and with only 3 provinces. So it does seem likly that they do or they have a much bigger income each year than they should.

[BDC]

I think North Atlantic counts as shallow seas.

[NewJeffCT]

well, I had one campaign as the English, and I ran at a deficit for decades... so, I think you can still build as long as you have some income. you just have to be selective, and it takes longer.

[Aelwyn]

?? I could never build anything once I hit the red. And all of those suspicions sound true to me. Like for instance, the A.I. was transferring 3-4 stacks from one province to the other every year (all but these two provinces which were landlocked, were surrounded by me, so no re-inforcements from anywhere else). Well the year I decided to attack the province these stacks would have been leaving....they decided not to. Coincidence? I think not. They moved every year without fail for around 20 years.

[eXistenZi]

Quote[/b] (Aelwyn @ April 21 2003,16:53)]?? I could never build anything once I hit the red. And all of those suspicions sound true to me. Like for instance, the A.I. was transferring 3-4 stacks from one province to the other every year (all but these two provinces which were landlocked, were surrounded by me, so no re-inforcements from anywhere else). Well the year I decided to attack the province these stacks would have been leaving....they decided not to. Coincidence? I think not. They moved every year without fail for around 20 years.
I think he means that you can build a lot of units while you still have money but then be in the red for as long as you want due to maintenance costs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Asmodeus]

I think the North Sea does count as Shallow Water (although dont try to wade it). I'm playing the Danes and I had no problem attacking Britain with hordes of vikings in longships. They work fine in the North Sea (not just for AI) but they wont work in the Atlantic or central Med. I guess its considered 'coastal waters' even if it is over 200 nautical miles from coast to coast

[Tora]

Yes. I didn't realise the North Atlantic was "shallow". (Try telling the commander of the Bismarck that)
It's just the Atlantic Ocean, Western Med and Central Med that are "Deep".
In the end however the English sent a single barque to the North Sea five years on the run to prevent me reinforcing in the Baltic, the last two against a stack of eight galleys with four three star leaders(?)
There may have been more to come but the easiest option was to conquer the British Isles.

[NewJeffCT]

speaking of ships - if you eliminate a faction with a lot of ships, they all disappear at once. I would love to hire them are mercenary ships or something.

[MizuKokami]

i am certain that the ai is programmed to be able to do things that you can't, such as them building armies, even when you are the richest and can't build peasants, or knowing when the attack is going to come...etc...
tho i am loathe to call it cheating, it doesn't seem right to me. however, it's done to give us more of a challenge. but again, however, it doesn't increase the challenge but makes it far easier, and as of late, i've found it more boreing then challengeing. like when there is a single province rebellion of 3000 peasants and maybe a few better units. sure, you lose the province if you aren't prepared for it, but you can get it back within a couple of years, and you get rebel lands and a lot of rebel heads on sticks. i have funded invasions on the moneies i've gotten from rebellions. and how about the period when no one will be your friend, and they decide not to let you marry their daughters anymore. your allies turn on you, and within a couple of years, it's like everyone is at war with you. so they attack. the bleeping idiots. maybe you aren't ready for it at first, but move your armies back into position, counter attack, take back the lands you lost and a few extra lands for your trouble, the next thing you know their governments are in turmoil, and their own rebellions are too much for them, leaveing you the only one able to pick up the pieces. so even if it was a catholic faction that attacks a catholic faction, and the pope slaps your wrist if you try to fight back, the pope doesn't say anything if you attack the enemy's rebelling territories. it would be challengeing if the attack was a coordinated attack, and if the enemy attacked when they were ready instead of like they were some kind of impatient, greedy, wanna be.
but i digress. the ai needs to cheat, it wouldn't/ couldn't stand a chance otherwise.

[lonewolf371]

The North Atlantic touches Ireland, and being next to a land province is therefore coastal and shallow.

[eat cold steel]

Ah, do posts on AI cheating appears once every full moon? The AI follows the same rules as the player mostly, that includes time it take to build stuff, as well as armies, fleets, crusades and agents movement. As for rebellions, it's just a rule of the game, the AI suffers as much as the player does. Ganging up on the largest faction is really just that - it's not directed towards the player, it's just so happens that the player is also the largest faction.

It gets cheat cash depending on how he does compared to the richest faction, it can get up to 60% extra farm income on expert in the end game when there is one large faction finishing off the last few regions.

Troop movement is a complex system of rules, points, threshold and dice rolls, a lot of hard work has gone in to get it to behave the way it does now, it may not behave like a human, but it does put up a fight.

It knows where you king is when it comes to offering alliance and marrages, it knows the stats of your generals when it come to finding target for public burnings and assassinations. It knows how much income each region is generating and what buildings each have when attacking. There I've said it - the AI cheats but not as much as you think.

[Shahed]

Wow thanks for that info.

I'm playing Almohads GA at the mo, England is the largest empire, has no allies and everyone is ganging up on the AI.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Asmodeus]

I havent really noticed much in the way of AI cheating, but I play on Normal level so it's a bit more equal. In my current campaign it's the two biggest AI factions, the Mongols and the Spanish who are having all the grief, few allies and lots of rebelions. My Danish empire is gradually dominating northern europe and nurturing allies where possible. Both the Sicilians and the Spanish had brief wars with me, the usual surprise attack on my shipping which was met with all out battles on the high seas. Both factions later came to sue for peace after a few years and loss of their fleets.

Do the other factions (apart from the pope) remember previous treachery as in Civ3? For example if you are the English and you back stab the French (assuming the pope doesnt get involved) do other factions regard you as less trustworthy? If the war ends with France will the French hold a grudge for your attack? Or is all fair in the Dark Ages of warfare?

[eat cold steel]

Treachery will be remember as long as the king lives, maybe the his heir will remeber it too, but it should not last for more than two generations. Other faction will know it too but to a less extend. It mainly affects things like assassination and other less important stuff. But when it comes to war on the battlefield, it's mostly profit and survival first, person grudges later.

[Asmodeus]

Thanks for the quick answer Eat Cold Steel http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I thought there may be some degree of grudge based upon such treacherous acts as in my current campaign I have behaved a bit more nobly than I would normally and i seem to have avoided that 'no one will ally / make peace with me' trap. I was pleasantly surprised, it's almost 1300 and the newly arrived Swiss faction offered their princess for an alliance - something that normally only seems to happen early on. Both the Spanish and the Scicillians were quick to offer peace after brief naval wars. Only the horde will having nothing to do with me, but then I've whipped them in about 9 battles in a row defending Lithuania http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[A.Saturnus]

Quote[/b] ]
Ah, do posts on AI cheating appears once every full moon? The AI follows the same rules as the player mostly, that includes time it take to build stuff, as well as armies, fleets, crusades and agents movement. As for rebellions, it's just a rule of the game, the AI suffers as much as the player does. Ganging up on the largest faction is really just that - it's not directed towards the player, it's just so happens that the player is also the largest faction.


I`m sorry but I know for sure that this isn`t correct. The AI can see your moves. I thought of it as a myth myself because it`s hard to prove, but yesterday I had confirmation. Playing the English, I decided to change the army I had in Ile-de-France with that I had in Toulouse. That required to put them both to Anjou. I thought "since the Germans don`t expect this, they can hardly use the opportunity and attack Ile-de-France while no army`s there". Well, I was wrong, the Germans did attack. Was it one of this random attack the AI sometimes does? No, it wasn`t. I reloaded, let the army stand in Ile-de-France - no attack. Again reloaded; move army away - attack. I repeated that about 20 times. Whenever I moved the army away, the Germans attacked, whenever I let it stay, they didn`t attack. The chance that this is coincidence is rediculusly small.
The AI may not often (or better very rarely) use it to it`s advantage, but obviously, it can see your moves.

[Papewaio]

Quote[/b] (eat cold steel @ April 23 2003,04:34)]Treachery will be remember as long as the king lives, maybe the his heir will remeber it too, but it should not last for more than two generations. Other faction will know it too but to a less extend. It mainly affects things like assassination and other less important stuff. But when it comes to war on the battlefield, it's mostly profit and survival first, person grudges later.
Eat Cold Steel-San does it remember honourable actions like when you lift the seige of an ally?

Does this have any positive effect or am I delusional (both probably http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[hiver77]

Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ April 23 2003,06:33)]I`m sorry but I know for sure that this isn`t correct. The AI can see your moves. I thought of it as a myth myself because it`s hard to prove, but yesterday I had confirmation. Playing the English, I decided to change the army I had in Ile-de-France with that I had in Toulouse. That required to put them both to Anjou. I thought "since the Germans don`t expect this, they can hardly use the opportunity and attack Ile-de-France while no army`s there". Well, I was wrong, the Germans did attack. Was it one of this random attack the AI sometimes does? No, it wasn`t. I reloaded, let the army stand in Ile-de-France - no attack. Again reloaded; move army away - attack. I repeated that about 20 times. Whenever I moved the army away, the Germans attacked, whenever I let it stay, they didn`t attack. The chance that this is coincidence is rediculusly small.
The AI may not often (or better very rarely) use it to it`s advantage, but obviously, it can see your moves.
If I remember from a discussion long times ago, somebody said that the player moves first, then the AIs. Thus, the AI will react in accordance to your moves simply because it sees them.

If that's true, it's not "cheating" per-say. More like and advantage http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I kinda like the old Warlord system where turns are random each round.

[eat cold steel]

> does it remember honourable actions like when you lift the seige of an ally?

It forgets about all pass grudes against your faction.

> The AI may not often (or better very rarely) use it to it`s advantage, but obviously, it can see your moves.
Would you believe me if I said the AI keeps track of you reloading the game and decide to "do the same"?

Ok it doesn't do that... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Dîn-Heru]

Quote[/b] (eat cold steel @ April 23 2003,10:34)]Treachery will be remember as long as the king lives, maybe the his heir will remeber it too, but it should not last for more than two generations. Other faction will know it too but to a less extend. It mainly affects things like assassination and other less important stuff. But when it comes to war on the battlefield, it's mostly profit and survival first, person grudges later.
What if the faction was neutral, attacked you first, and you than counterattack, capture their king, and by doing so confine the faction to their med. islands?

i'am playng as the egyptians, the horde conquored almost all of the byzantine lands, exept Lesser Armenia. The byzantines then attacked me, and I retaliated and took the province. I captured the emperor, but ransom was refused. The new emperor appeared on cyprus, they have no fleet, and don't pose a threat to anybody. Both the new emporor and my sultan have passed away, but they still won't accept a ceasefire. Is it because I'm the strongest, richest and most developed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ?